127 replies to this topic

[collyblom]

pebbles said:

There's apparently a lot of research and study going on that investigates how the way we use language changes the way we think.  It's interesting.

Well it's not really accurate to seperate language and cognition is it?

collyblom=social constructionist

[yensen]

I guess I'm one of those who sees a huge difference between secular Christmas, which is pretty much a generic winter festival with mostly pagan symbols, and the religious Christmas, which really should stay in churches and families.  As in, it's much more appropriate to have a Christmas tree on a town common than a nativity scene.  But I wouldn't be offended either way.  And honestly, I think it would be  more fun to attend a Hannukah party, which I have nothing to do with religiously or culturally, than a bland nothing-at-all party.  I actually have celebrated both religious and secular Jewish traditions with friends in the past, and never felt out of place.  It's possible to celebrate a tradition while being welcoming to those who are technically outside it.  And I think the solution, if one is needed, should be to include more traditions instead of fewer.

[OldManRay]

yensen said:

It's possible to celebrate a tradition while being welcoming to those who are technically outside it.  And I think the solution, if one is needed, should be to include more traditions instead of fewer.

I agree completely.  A fixture on my calendar the last few years has been Diwali.  Since moving to the US four years ago, I've made a lot of Indian friends, and I've attended many Diwali events, from large public performances followed by fireworks, to small gatherings of friends.  I've always felt welcome, and from the increasing turn-out of non-Indians at the public events, many local folks here feel the same way.  Like Christmas, it may be a festival with religious meaning underlying it, but it's also very enjoyable for an outsider to participate in in a completely non-religious way.

[collyblom]

I'm not sure about this.  It could end up that you're like a tourist, gawking at the spectacle and treating it like entertainment.  Being patronizing to the exotic others?  I guess it would be finding the right balance, and also entering into the spirit of the thing.  Which is why, if you're not going to join in the religious part, I wonder whether it is appropriate.

[OldManRay]

collyblom said:

I'm not sure about this.  It could end up that you're like a tourist, gawking at the spectacle and treating it like entertainment.  Being patronizing to the exotic others?  I guess it would be finding the right balance, and also entering into the spirit of the thing.  Which is why, if you're not going to join in the religious part, I wonder whether it is appropriate.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the spectacle (which is what everyone else is doing too) and hopefully along the way you get a better understanding of another culture.  As far as Diwali goes, I'm told that even in India, the religious side is only a part of the modern festival, but whether you're Hindu or not, you can still enjoy the dance, music, food, and fireworks that go with it.   I don't follow how I'm being patronizing by not participating in a religious ceremony when it's not my religion, while still enjoying the rest of the celebration - the folks who invited me would also find this a strange suggestion.

[collyblom]

Ok, maybe not in the example you've given, but perhaps in others it would be inappropriate?  Personally, I hate the way the media in SA intrudes into the Zulu Reed Dance (in which a bunch of young virgin teenagers dance barechested in front of the Zulu king).  They report on it every year and show footage.  And I understand, yes it happens, but is it just news because it's a bunch of shirtless girls?  Because that's just gawking IMHO.

[Tuatara Taupo]

piglet said:

I'm just waiting for a note to say no Christmas Cards - there will be a walk out.

I'd love to hear others views on this...

I don't know which country you are in to say that this is a Christian country. Which country are you referring to? Most industrialized "western" countries are predominately Christian, so I'll assume that you are referring to one of them. Do you mean that it's simply a predominately Christian country rather than an official Christian country, per se?

I've worked at a couple of places where one or two individuals of a non-Christian belief complained about a department "Christmas tree". I asked one of them what problem was that they had with a decorated fir tree. That person said it was Christian. I asked him what was Christian about it? He said "the ornaments imply Christianity". And I asked which ornaments. He could not point one out. I explained to him that decorated fir trees predated Christianity in parts of Europe--Germany, for one, I think. That is, the decorated fir tree has pagan origins and traditions that various people of "modern" religions have adopted and celebrated, including Christians (Christmas tree) and Jews (Hanukkah shrub). The decorated fir tree is multicultural. Just look at parts of Asia, where Christians are in the minority, but cities, businesses, and households are decorated with Santa Clauses, color lights, and decorated trees. It's fun and colorful and festive. He shrugged and walked off and did not acknowledge anything. (Chap always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder.)

That got me wondering about the company sponsored (buffet style) lunches that we had once a week. We would have meat dishes and vegatarian dishes to accomodate those who preferred one type or the other or BOTH.

I asked the staff person who orders the lunches why we never have pork dishes. She hesitated, but said she would check. Low and behold, the next week we had sweet and sour pork among the various meat entrees. I kept an eye on the same person with whom I had the fir tree discussion (above). I wondered what he would say. Sure enough, he did raise a stink, per se. He argued that it's not fair to offer pork because he doesn't have the choice of something else. I calmly asked him what he meant since several other meat dishes were available. He said it's not fair that some people can choose to have pork but he can't therefore it should not be offered. (I was bewildered!) I calmly pointed out the situation with all of the vegetarians in our group (quite a few!) who cannot choose half the entrees, but we as meat eaters can choose any number of vegie or meat dishes. Was that fair or even more extreme version of his argument? He shrugged and walked away.

So, who is right? December is a multi-cultural festive season. In most Western industrialized countries, Christmas predominates simply because there are more of them than others.

Should company-sponsored lunches (or other meals) forbid a certain meat products because someone doesn't believe in eating it, but most do? If so, why? If so, couldn't it be argued that no meat products be offered because some vegetarians oppose eating meat? That's not reasonable, is it?

My greeting cards that I send are not explicitely Christian or any religion. I don't know the religion of all the recipients, so I try to be sensitive and reasonable to a degree.

Why shouldn't a company have a decorated fir tree, and why shouldn't pork be offered? Afterall, we don't ban beef, even though some religions consider cow to be sacred.

[wagtail]

OldManRay said:

Almost of all the trimmings that most people in the west associate with Christmas have nothing to do with religion.   Really, there are two festivals, one religious, and the other with roots in religion but which has long since been made secular, and both of these have the same name and are celebrated at the same time, often (but not necessarily) by the same people.  The secular Christmas can be thought of as western cultural tradition, one that anyone can choose to participate in through parties, festive decorations, Santa Claus, presents, etc, without paying any heed to the religious side of things.  What does a drunken office party have to do with Jesus?  As long as religion isn't a part of an office Christmas celebration, I don't see what the fuss is about, and I'm an atheist who gets easily irritated by the intrusion of religion into any part of my life.  I still wish people a happy Christmas, but when I do, I mean for them to enjoy the holiday and the festive season, however they choose to celebrate it.

Okay, I pretty much agree with the points you've made here, except my point is simply that I don't see what the fuss is about if it is called something else?  

Since this thread has got so long I'm going to requote the first post and once again highlight the third paragraph because that is the sentiment I have a problem with, and it's that sentiment that has nothing to do with this secular notion of Christmas we are speaking of.  

piglet said:

I've been advised today that I can't organise a 'Christmas Party' at work this year. It has to be a 'Celebration' instead.  The reason - not everyone celebrates Christmas and calling it a christmas party could cause offense.  

99% of the staff celebrate Christmas, the few that don't join in anyway and have done for 9 years. We have a Christmas party for Staff's children as well, with Father Christmas - that has to change too.

Am I being unreasonable here -  I think this is going too far. This is a Christian country, surely those who choose to live here, can accept that we have our own celebrations, Christmas being one of them.

I'm just waiting for a note to say no Christmas Cards - there will be a walk out.

I'd love to hear others views on this...

It seems fitting that I requote since the discussion hasn't really progressed any and it's not likely to  progress when people raise concerns, ask questions and seek clarification and get very little response. That to me is how these issues get blown out of proportion, [can we all agree that it has?], because there is no way ideas can evolve when one party feels they don't have to be accountable for their views simply because they are the views of the majority.