530 replies to this topic

[TidgeyPud]

Surely we are discussing things objectively!  Look, I'm sorry you can't take criticism on behalf of the band, I'm sorry you can't accept others' comments, I'm sorry you have to live in Thunder Bay, it must be a burden.  

If you don't have any disappointments why are you still in this thread?

[Jaesin923]

WaterHyacinth said:

My imitation of Jaesin:

I think REM are the reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and Bono, and they can't do anything wrong! I've come to this site 'cos I think a fansite means a place where not one bad thing is said about the band, and any comments, suggestions, and opinions about aspects we might find objectable should be kept quiet 'cos oh, the humanity if we ever reveal that we don't like something about our favourite band! What... you mean it's not your favourite band? Then why are you here? You must worship the band every single hour and sing the holy Radio Free Prayer everytime a pic of Stipe with a celebrity is posted! If you refuse, you have to give out reasons about your discontent, 'cos liking them is far too obvious, but an action of such size as expressing a disagreement truly deserves a well-thought explanation that I can endorse, and since I think the band can't do anything wrong and put that forth as a fact, you lose! HA! Go away, you little insignificant, psychopathetic, suggestion box loser! La la la...

Fuck, Nate!  You nailed it...dead on!  

*golf applause*

Now that you've got that out of your system, how about you wipe your bum, and tell me what it is you don't like about some of the more recent R.E.M. ?

I'm ready to hear what you all think, for that matter...can we give this another try? :o

[Jaesin923]

TidgeyPud said:

Surely we are discussing things objectively!  Look, I'm sorry you can't take criticism on behalf of the band, I'm sorry you can't accept others' comments, I'm sorry you have to live in Thunder Bay, it must be a burden.  

If you don't have any disappointments why are you still in this thread?

My R.E.M. disappointment is having to hear that someone could/would be disappointed by the music in any way, particularly the more recent stuff (which I am quite fond of)...

And FYI, the info in my profile is old, and I haven't gotten around to changing it...yes, living in Thunder Bay WAS a burden, which is why I've moved to Calgary, where I am much happier...

Thanks for your concern!:D

[goldenmonkey]

For me, Chronic Town is a perfect piece of work. It has a unique identity, all the songs work as a whole or in isolation and I can think of nothing I would change about it. Every album since, I can find something that's not quite perfect if I'm picky enough. Here's the edited version.

Second Guessing. Not unpleasant in any way but it always sounded like the runt of the Reckoning litter to me.

The very 80s synth thing on Exhuming McCarthy jars with me. I didn't hear it until the mid 1990s so I'll have to leave it to others to say if it sounded out of place at the time. All I know is that I like the song but only play it when there's no-one around because the synth makes me squirm.

The Wrong Child.

The front cover of OOT. Strangely, the rest of the artwork is great.

The grunting/whooping on Ignoreland.

Printed lyrics.

And... well, I have to say much of the criticism of ATS I agree with. Despite what has been suggested, I don't get the impression that people are just jumping on the bandwagon to be funky. I certainly wanted to like ATS and have given it a chance to grow on me but it never happened. R.E.M. have set a high standard and I found ATS less inventive than anything they've done before. I don't want them to go backwards, I just miss the playfulness and lightness of touch that seems to have gone missing, particularly in the lyrics and melodies. The sort of thing that turned one chord in to Me in Honey. The way the harmonies and melody fit together on Fall on Me. The thing that makes You are the Everything such an extraordinary song... 3 musicians playing the wrong instruments and those words. Complex but childlike. Evoking a feeling I know but can't explain. When I hear that song I feel like I'm somewhere alse entirely. When I hear ATS I'm in the living room listening to a CD.

[zveozdi]

Jaesin923 said:

Like, really...I listen to Around the Sun all the time

So maybe, that really is your problem... :p

But seriously, I don't know how old are you but I bet you're not old enough to have learned already that sometimes you have to deal with other people's opinions whether you like them or not. Because this is just a website, but there is dissent in real life too and I tell you is much more worse than having an argument with someone 10,000 miles away from you.

Having said that, I believe criticism is what make artists evolve. I know any of the members of the band is going to read this thread, but can you imagine how things would be if people told them "you're the best" all the time? I bet it would suck.

[Matthew Wood]

Jaesin923 said:

Was I close? :D

You're Brett the molester if he had a speelchecker [sic].

Just my self-righteous vigilanteism. What's good for the goose, as they say.

[Dream Brother]

Jaesin923 said:

My imitation of Driver Nate:

Well in my opinion, the lyrics are so brutal; cringe-worthy, if you will...not like anything I've ever had to endure before...also, I find the melodies of these songs lazy and boring...they should focus less on the studio and more on their live sets...not that these songs don't carry over nicely to a live interpretation...

This pretty much sums it up for a lot of people.

[Jaesin923]

goldenmonkey said:

For me, Chronic Town is a perfect piece of work. It has a unique identity, all the songs work as a whole or in isolation and I can think of nothing I would change about it. Every album since, I can find something that's not quite perfect if I'm picky enough. Here's the edited version.

Second Guessing. Not unpleasant in any way but it always sounded like the runt of the Reckoning litter to me.

The very 80s synth thing on Exhuming McCarthy jars with me. I didn't hear it until the mid 1990s so I'll have to leave it to others to say if it sounded out of place at the time. All I know is that I like the song but only play it when there's no-one around because the synth makes me squirm.

The Wrong Child.

The front cover of OOT. Strangely, the rest of the artwork is great.

The grunting/whooping on Ignoreland.

Printed lyrics.

And... well, I have to say much of the criticism of ATS I agree with. Despite what has been suggested, I don't get the impression that people are just jumping on the bandwagon to be funky. I certainly wanted to like ATS and have given it a chance to grow on me but it never happened. R.E.M. have set a high standard and I found ATS less inventive than anything they've done before. I don't want them to go backwards, I just miss the playfulness and lightness of touch that seems to have gone missing, particularly in the lyrics and melodies. The sort of thing that turned one chord in to Me in Honey. The way the harmonies and melody fit together on Fall on Me. The thing that makes You are the Everything such an extraordinary song... 3 musicians playing the wrong instruments and those words. Complex but childlike. Evoking a feeling I know but can't explain. When I hear that song I feel like I'm somewhere alse entirely. When I hear ATS I'm in the living room listening to a CD.

Well GoldMonkey...that was very thorough, and very honest of you... I think I might understand what you mean in terms of getting lost in other R.E.M. albums in a way that Around the Sun just doesn't seem to be able to affect you; no other R.E.M. album has been able to compare (IMHO, at any point in the catalogue) to the way Up was able to whisk me away on an amazing journey of confusion, love, fear, pride, paranoia and realization, etc.  This could have been due to the circumstances under which the album was written, and then again, perhaps not.   I was anxious for Around the Sun after hearing the snippetts of some of the songs in the summer of '04, and I'll admit, I was kinda lukewarm to the album just after it came out (I did, however, adore The Outsiders)...but over time, even the songs I initially disliked (High Speed Train, Worst Joke Ever) I found were getting significant play on any one of my stereos...which brings me to another idea: if you find it just feels like another CD in the living room, maybe try smoking a doobie, and tossing it in the ol' car stereo as you take a nice, long drive...it's my favourite place to listen to it, and I definitely noticed a difference between listening to it in my car from listening to it (even on headphones, while stoned) in my living room...

[Jaesin923]

zveozdi said:

Having said that, I believe criticism is what make artists evolve. I know any of the members of the band is going to read this thread, but can you imagine how things would be if people told them "you're the best" all the time? I bet it would suck.

I don't think it would suck as much as everyone saying "you suck" all the time, just because everyone else was saying it.

And I don't believe criticism even registers when R.E.M. are writing...do you honestly think they care about making an album that YOU want?  If they did, I don't think a 100% creative control clause would even matter, do you?

[Matthew Wood]

Jaesin923 said:

I don't think it would suck as much as everyone saying "you suck" all the time, just because everyone else was saying it.

And I don't believe criticism even registers when R.E.M. are writing...do you honestly think they care about making an album that YOU want?  If they did, I don't think a 100% creative control clause would even matter, do you?

I don't think you came here to discuss R.E.M., because you seem to ignore A) the nature of this thread, B) the thousands of positive posts in this forum. You're the one choosing to place emphasis on opinions that contrast with yours, and in so doing you're making this a less pleasant experience for yourself. If you have a selective, irrevocably biased way of approaching this place, I don't think your presence matters, do you?

[Jaesin923]

Now that we've somewhat established Around the Sun as a consensual "diappointment" (even if I stand alone in feeling differently about it), how about we discuss some of the specifics behind this general disappointment?  

For starters, "Leaving New York" ...my view?

- gorgeous melody; love how the vocal was left a tad rough, imperfect (especially on the overlay)
- nice, open-interpretive lyric that really reflects the confusion and sadness of the theme of the song
- easy to sing along to; good choice for first single (as if we're trying to move units here!:rolleyes: )
- and last but not least, superb video that sums up, and compliments the song itself.


What are everybody elses thoughts?:o

[WaterHyacinth]

Jaesin923 said:

Fuck, Nate!  You nailed it...dead on!  

*golf applause*

Now that you've got that out of your system, how about you wipe your bum, and tell me what it is you don't like about some of the more recent R.E.M. ?

I'm ready to hear what you all think, for that matter...can we give this another try? :o

I sorta dislike that their fans have short attention spans (I'm not Jonathan), but that's not a criticism of the band itself, so I'll move on. Ok, here are a couple of reasons:
1. ATS' bland production. I quite like Up and Reveal, the first is an impressive yet imperfect document of a band in the midst of a major change, pushed into further experimentalism by arguably their biggest loss in their entire career, and unsure about their future, which really shows in how they attempt to cover as much new musical ground as possible, let it be ambient (Airportman), Beach Boys balladry (At My Most Beautiful), electronica (Hope), and the production works perfectly there, it really gives the album character.
Reveal is a denser record, and I have a couple of issues with the overproduction, The Lifting for instance, as much as I love the song, it could use some less blips and blops; I'll Take The Rain feels too 'perfect' at times; and Summer Turns Too High is well-executed and fits the record, but it lacks a certain warmness for me that prevents me from enjoying this song. Still, the lush. pristine production of Beat A Drum, Imitation Of Life; and the continuing flirtations with electronica of Saturn Return, I've Been High, etc... all help creating an enjoyable summer record, which is what the band intended at first, and again, despite not fully succeeding, the result is nothing to be embarrased about.
ATS, on the other hand, doesn't have enough character to grab you, it lacks the edge of Up, a lack that doesn't suit the political intentions of the record, and it fails on creating the lush, inviting landscape of most of Reveal, the mix is merely palatable, and kills the good tunes that are hidden underneath the bland production, songs like Make It All OK, The Worst Joke Ever, pass by without making an impact on me, and easily blend into one big, long, tired piece of work where you can barely feel the presence of band members other than Stipe, almost as if they were muted. Which brings me to poinst #2....

2. Stipe's lyrics aren't able to carry many of the tunes. I Wanted To Be Wrong, The Outsiders are standouts among a sea of lame nursery rhymes, clichéd observations, and downright embarrasments that don't feel quite natural coming from the band that just 3 years ago had given us some pearls like The Lifting, Disappear, Saturn Return... songs that still stand out as great despite being part of arguably one of their most disliked albums, and truth be told, it's one of my least favourites, but I still love it. I can't say the same thing about ATS, whatever impact it had at first slowly faded away, sometimes 'cos it just didn't make an impression, and other times 'cos I truly feel that tunes like the title track, with such trite lyrics, lame instrumentation that strives for epic but falls incredibly flat, and a horribly sirupy coda, are the sound of a band at its most uninspired, falling short of their potential. That song's the main offender for me, but I could pinpoint other faults in more songs as well.

3. That potential - it's buried under layers and layers of overproduction that strips the songs from their character and creates an unbearable sameness throughout the record. Automatic isn't 12 Man On The Moon sound-alikes, tracks 8-11 for instance differ a lot musically as well as thematically, yet AFTP's cohesiveness brings them together to form a musical whole that can still be appreciated separately song by song. Very few songs on ATS can stand up on their own, and despite coming alive when performed in concert, I seldom, if not never, find the need of listening to the album versions when I think of listening to good REM songs. The way they are, they're just not, and I can't help but think they could be, if only the production didn't make the album feel so stiff.

Again, I only talked about the music 'cos it's the most important aspect for me, and I really don't mind Stipe smooching with celebrities and Buck throwing yoghurt alone, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the music, or lack thereof, in the case of ATS.

And that is my biggest REM disappointment, precisely what this thread's about is in the first place. I think that's enough for now.

[Matthew Wood]

Jaesin923 said:

What are everybody elses thoughts?

Start a new thread.

And yes, I notice you ignoring my posts, because you can't win. ;)

P.S. "You suck."

[Jaesin923]

Matthew Wood said:

I don't think you came here to discuss R.E.M., because you seem to ignore A) the nature of this thread, B) the thousands of positive posts in this forum. You're the one choosing to place emphasis on opinions that contrast with yours, and in so doing you're making this a less pleasant experience for yourself. If you have a selective, irrevocably biased way of approaching this place, I don't think your presence matters, do you?

And Matthew, you seem to ignore the fact that A) if this experience was anywhere near unpleasant, I'd be gone along time ago, and B) if you'd stop walking backwards through life, you'd see that I'm making an honest attempt to objectively discuss what people find disappointing about the music because I'M INTERESTED TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY

Do you think I typed that big enough for him to read?  Anyway..enough mud-flinging already...What I want are opinions regarding the music, if we can at least agree on why we're here...

[Jaesin923]

Matthew Wood said:

Start a new thread.

And yes, I notice you ignoring my posts, because you can't win. ;)

P.S. "You suck."

For the record, I'm not ignoring anyone's post...an even if I could win, what'd be the prize, a date with your Mom?  Go bother DriverNate, I don't know if he's had her yet...

Sorry Nate, but you gotta admit, this IS getting out of hand...

[Jaesin923]

WaterHyacinth said:

I sorta dislike that their fans have short attention spans (I'm not Jonathan), but that's not a criticism of the band itself, so I'll move on. Ok, here are a couple of reasons:
1. ATS' bland production. I quite like Up and Reveal, the first is an impressive yet imperfect document of a band in the midst of a major change, pushed into further experimentalism by arguably their biggest loss in their entire career, and unsure about their future, which really shows in how they attempt to cover as much new musical ground as possible, let it be ambient (Airportman), Beach Boys balladry (At My Most Beautiful), electronica (Hope), and the production works perfectly there, it really gives the album character.
Reveal is a denser record, and I have a couple of issues with the overproduction, The Lifting for instance, as much as I love the song, it could use some less blips and blops; I'll Take The Rain feels too 'perfect' at times; and Summer Turns Too High is well-executed and fits the record, but it lacks a certain warmness for me that prevents me from enjoying this song. Still, the lush. pristine production of Beat A Drum, Imitation Of Life; and the continuing flirtations with electronica of Saturn Return, I've Been High, etc... all help creating an enjoyable summer record, which is what the band intended at first, and again, despite not fully succeeding, the result is nothing to be embarrased about.
ATS, on the other hand, doesn't have enough character to grab you, it lacks the edge of Up, a lack that doesn't suit the political intentions of the record, and it fails on creating the lush, inviting landscape of most of Reveal, the mix is merely palatable, and kills the good tunes that are hidden underneath the bland production, songs like Make It All OK, The Worst Joke Ever, pass by without making an impact on me, and easily blend into one big, long, tired piece of work where you can barely feel the presence of band members other than Stipe, almost as if they were muted. Which brings me to poinst #2....

2. Stipe's lyrics aren't able to carry many of the tunes. I Wanted To Be Wrong, The Outsiders are standouts among a sea of lame nursery rhymes, clichéd observations, and downright embarrasments that don't feel quite natural coming from the band that just 3 years ago had given us some pearls like The Lifting, Disappear, Saturn Return... songs that still stand out as great despite being part of arguably one of their most disliked albums, and truth be told, it's one of my least favourites, but I still love it. I can't say the same thing about ATS, whatever impact it had at first slowly faded away, sometimes 'cos it just didn't make an impression, and other times 'cos I truly feel that tunes like the title track, with such trite lyrics, lame instrumentation that strives for epic but falls incredibly flat, and a horribly sirupy coda, are the sound of a band at its most uninspired, falling short of their potential. That song's the main offender for me, but I could pinpoint other faults in more songs as well.

3. That potential - it's buried under layers and layers of overproduction that strips the songs from their character and creates an unbearable sameness throughout the record. Automatic isn't 12 Man On The Moon sound-alikes, tracks 8-11 for instance differ a lot musically as well as thematically, yet AFTP's cohesiveness brings them together to form a musical whole that can still be appreciated separately song by song. Very few songs on ATS can stand up on their own, and despite coming alive when performed in concert, I seldom, if not never, find the need of listening to the album versions when I think of listening to good REM songs. The way they are, they're just not, and I can't help but think they could be, if only the production didn't make the album feel so stiff.

Again, I only talked about the music 'cos it's the most important aspect for me, and I really don't mind Stipe smooching with celebrities and Buck throwing yoghurt alone, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the music, or lack thereof, in the case of ATS.

And that is my biggest REM disappointment, precisely what this thread's about is in the first place. I think that's enough for now.

Alrighty then...anyone else?:o

[Matthew Wood]

Jaesin923 said:

For the record, I'm not ignoring anyone's post...an even if I could win, what'd be the prize, a date with your Mom?  Go bother DriverNate, I don't know if he's had her yet...

Sorry Nate, but you gotta admit, this IS getting out of hand...

See, these potshots, though unproductive and pointless, are what first steered this thread away from what you wanted to discuss. Unless I'm mistaken, you were the first and most prominent offender. That's why it's impossible to take you seriously. You aren't the first blind R.E.M. worshipper, nor are you the only obnoxious user on this board--hell, I've added my share of lunacy to this place--but you are very self-detrimental if you actually have a goal here. Also, Driver Nate is one of the most respected people at Murmurs, and he contributes more to this board (R.E.M. related and otherwise) than you could dream of, unless you cool your jets. But if I may something that even I admit is immature, this board would be dull without jesters. So rock on with your bad self.

[RamblingRob]

I'd have to say that REM doesnt tour as much as they should-new album or not.   They are an extremely compelling live band, quite unique in their approach.  Need tours at least every other year.

[Matthew Wood]

RamblingRob said:

I'd have to say that REM doesnt tour as much as they should-new album or not.   They are an extremely compelling live band, quite unique in their approach.  Need tours at least every other year.

Agreed. Even some of the lackluster album tracks gain a pulse onstage, e.g. "High Speed Train".