63 replies to this topic

[Antti]

Read my original post. Then see how you took it out of context, those values had not been mentioned at the time I submitted the post you quote first in your post.

I usually view matters from an individualistic point of view. I don't feel that trying to pass such a proclamation or law, whatever you want to call it can progress that as in that form that we read it, it's even discriminating.

[Kaleidoscope]

Quote

Originally posted by Antti
Read my original post. Then see how you took it out of context, those values had not been mentioned at the time I submitted the post you quote first in your post.

I'm confused Antti. Are you saying then that you did not read the proclamation before condemning it?

[KingBeatnik]

The way I see it, prayer either accomplished good things, or it accomplishes nothing.  I hardly feel anything bad can come from the act of prayer itself.  The negative side of a proclamation like this is that to some it is divisive and exclusionary, and certainly we need no more of this in our world.  However, I will argue this I do not read into this proclamation any truculence, intended or otherwise, & as I see involvment in this as entirely voluntary, I find no harm in providing for those who feel a need for it the opportunity for faith-based unification.  Most of the world is developing very strong beliefs about the current state of things, and for those that do believe the United States has had divine assistance in its flourishing as a society, I support for them their comfort, whether I agree with or feel the same need for it myself.  The most serene of moments come in peoples' practice of their beliefs for the protection of their loved ones.  What good it may accomplish should not be debated, as that is not what is important- but is the opportunity for deep reflection.  Some people need guidance in finding time to best address in quiet peace their deepest personal concerns, & whether you choose to participate or not, do not begrudge them this freedom.  Their actions do not seem geared toward negating you yourself, & you establish your own disadvantage point to interpret in the every imperfect act of other human beings your own persecution.

[Antti]

Quote

Originally posted by Angel Sigh
I'm confused Antti. Are you saying then that you did not read the proclamation before condemning it?

Of course not. Ross didn't mention those things, and I didn't bring them up in my reply either as I saw no need for that. I probably can write a longer story about my views here but I'm in the middle of an exam week torment so I don't think that'll happen tonight. Possibly tomorrow.

[pebbles]

I kind of agree with Antti - why are lawmakers busy making proclamations that people reflect, etc - regardless of religion. Don't they have other things to do?

I wouldn't resent being asked to rest and reflect and harmonize - but I would resent being asked that of me by my *government*.

Perhaps it's just one of those international differences. Most americans don't seem to mind their government doing things like this - they see it as part and parcel OF government.

[ghamina]

Quote

Originally posted by pebbles
they see it as part and parcel OF government.

I don't see it as being part of government, but I don't resent a good suggestion- nevermind of the source.  This doesn't seem like anything to get your dander up over.

[phlmth]

Quote

Originally posted by Antti
A day of self reflection and harmony most likely does good and I think we agree that everyone knows that. Just why would such a law, voluntary or not, be necessary? That's one of the things that bug me.

Agreed.

It's certainly not anything that needs to be mandated or even suggested. Imho, things like this should be be completely voluntary to be of any good or worth, internally, with not even the hint of a suggestion from the gov't.

[mnkcarp]

It is not for the government to proclaim that we are to "submit to the wisdom and love of God".  

The wording in this proposition clearly brings the government into the role of religious advocacy, which is not constitutional.

I fully realize that there are established religious holidays in our country, which reflect respect for the dominant religion in America.  But <I>expanding</I> this open support, to me, is a bad precedent, especially considering the rather alarming power base now held by fundamental Christianity within our political system.  

Nor does it comfort me that our President has said that "God is not nuetral" in the war on terrorism.

Nor can this opening be considered a call for "reflection":

"Recognizing the public need for fasting and prayer in order to secure the blessings and protection of Providence for the people of the United States and our Armed Forces during the conflict in Iraq"


My own two cents, pray if you want.

[jlbreck]

Mnkcarp, you've voiced my source of uneasiness in your latest reply.

[Kaleidoscope]

Quote

Originally posted by KingBeatnik
The way I see it, prayer either accomplished good things, or it accomplishes nothing.  I hardly feel anything bad can come from the act of prayer itself.  The negative side of a proclamation like this is that to some it is divisive and exclusionary, and certainly we need no more of this in our world.  However, I will argue this I do not read into this proclamation any truculence, intended or otherwise, & as I see involvment in this as entirely voluntary, I find no harm in providing for those who feel a need for it the opportunity for faith-based unification.  Most of the world is developing very strong beliefs about the current state of things, and for those that do believe the United States has had divine assistance in its flourishing as a society, I support for them their comfort, whether I agree with or feel the same need for it myself.  The most serene of moments come in peoples' practice of their beliefs for the protection of their loved ones.  What good it may accomplish should not be debated, as that is not what is important- but is the opportunity for deep reflection.  Some people need guidance in finding time to best address in quiet peace their deepest personal concerns, & whether you choose to participate or not, do not begrudge them this freedom.  Their actions do not seem geared toward negating you yourself, & you establish your own disadvantage point to interpret in the every imperfect act of other human beings your own persecution.

Wow. If you won't marry me Chris, will you at least run for President? :) WOW!!

[MurmursAdministrator]

The issue is this:

Church <--------> State

This sets dangerous precident, as do any faith-based governmental decisions.

[mrdavesanchez]

Quote

Originally posted by ethank
The issue is this:

Church <--------> State

This sets dangerous precident, as do any faith-based governmental decisions.

Well not really.

I mean if it has happened 4 times in the past and probably a lot more then it really is not nothing new.


Whereas, on June 1, 1774, the Virginia House of Burgesses called for a day of fasting and prayer as an expression of solidarity with the people of Boston who were under siege by the enemy;

Whereas, on March 16, 1776, the Continental Congress, recognizing that the `Liberties of America are imminently endangered' and the need `to acknowledge the overruling Providence of God', called for a day of `Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer';

Whereas, on June 28, 1787, during the debate of the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin, convinced of God's intimate involvement in human affairs, implored the Congress to seek the assistance of Heaven in all its dealings;

Whereas, on March 30, 1863, in the midst of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln, at the bequest of the Senate, and himself recognizing the need of the Nation to humble itself before God in repentance for its national sins, proclaimed a day of fasting, prayer and humiliation;

[MurmursAdministrator]

The point is, I don't see this as being the first "faith based initiative."

We have a fundementalist christian president. "God" is supposedly a major part of his presidency and he has said that he advocates faith-based initiatives.

This, leading to that = bad

The concept of a "god" has no place in this government.

[Kaleidoscope]

"Americans Are Praying for Peace, Bush
According to a recent poll conducted by FOX News and Opinion Dynamics, a great majority of Americans are dealing with the military attack on Iraq by turning to prayer. When asked if they have prayed for peace in recent weeks, 81% said they had. This reliance on prayer was echoed by President Bush last week in a nationally televised press conference when Bush acknowledged, "I pray for peace. I pray daily. I pray for guidance and wisdom and strength. If we…commit our troops I would pray for their safety, and I would pray for the safety of innocent Iraqi lives, as well."

Seems pretty small minded not to want to pray or think good thoughts for everyone or indeed to want to squash those that do.

[MurmursAdministrator]

Quote

Originally posted by Angel Sigh
"Americans Are Praying for Peace, Bush
According to a recent poll conducted by FOX News and Opinion Dynamics, a great majority of Americans are dealing with the military attack on Iraq by turning to prayer. When asked if they have prayed for peace in recent weeks, 81% said they had. This reliance on prayer was echoed by President Bush last week in a nationally televised press conference when Bush acknowledged, "I pray for peace. I pray daily. I pray for guidance and wisdom and strength. If we?commit our troops I would pray for their safety, and I would pray for the safety of innocent Iraqi lives, as well."

Seems pretty small minded not to want to pray or think good thoughts for everyone or indeed to want to squash those that do.

Pray != think good thoughts.

Remove religion and all is well. Religion has no place in government.

[mrdavesanchez]

Quote

Originally posted by ethank
The point is, I don't see this as being the first "faith based initiative."

We have a fundementalist christian president. "God" is supposedly a major part of his presidency and he has said that he advocates faith-based initiatives.

This, leading to that = bad

The concept of a "god" has no place in this government.

So if Abraham Lincoln was alive now and he was President you would not have a problem with it?

[mnkcarp]

Quote

Originally posted by mrdavesanchez
Well not really.

I mean if it has happened 4 times in the past and probably a lot more then it really is not nothing new.

3 of the 4 instances referred to prior to the passage of the constitution and bill of rights which established the intent of our government to keep church and state separate.  

All four happened during a time period in which the US was overwhelmingly Protestant (at least in terms of people who were considered to "count"), before several massive influxes of immigrants from Europe challenged us to accept and respect more diversity, which challenge still faces us (now more than ever).

Crimony is that ever a long sentence... lol.

[Kaleidoscope]

Quote

Originally posted by ethank
Pray != think good thoughts.

Remove religion and all is well. Religion has no place in government.

I can concede you that :) I don't have a problem to have it rewritten to omit religious references, but I still think it's an awesome idea.

[craigp]

whislt we are writing eqautions

church + state = B====D

C

[mrdavesanchez]

For fun and enjoyment...

Lincoln's Religious Belief
Page 92
Public men are not as a general thing, noted for their pretty talk. The average politician and his life, doings and conversation, are not much in accordance with the Christian religion. He puts Christ and salvation in the background, and yet in the last hours he generally leaves some testimony as to what he thought of the future. So the last words of noted men are treasured. Stephen A. Douglas' last words were supposed to be addressed to his sons, directing them to understand the constitution and laws, and to obey them. Daniel Webster when about to expire said, "I still live." These words are supposed to be prophetic and sound beautiful. An old colored preacher used the same meaning when he said: "My breden, what did Daniel Webster say when his friends were standin' 'roun' and thought he was gone? He jus rized up and said, 'I ain't dead yet.'" This sounded ridiculous, but expressed the same meaning as the words spoken by Webster himself.
While Lincoln did not discuss theology, nor even make a public profession of religion, he was always a very moral and exemplary man. One day a minister remarked to him that he believed he was a Christian man and asked him why he did not join some church. Mr. Lincoln replied, that if he could find some church whose creed and requirements could be simmered down to the condensed statement, "Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and they neighbor as thyself," he would join that church was his heart and soul.
In 1851 Mr. Lincoln learned that his father was not expected to live and as he had sickness in his own family and could not go he wrote to his half brother. "I sincerely hope that father will recover, but, at all events, tell him to remember to call upon and confide in our great, good and merciful maker, who will not turn away from him. He notices the fall of the sparrows and numbers of hairs of our head, and He will not forget the dying man who places his trust in Him. Say to him, that if we could meet now, it is doubtful whether it would be more painful or pleasant, but if it be his lot to go he will have a joyful meeting with the loved ones gone before and the rest of us will hope, through the help of God, to join them e'er along." It will be remembered that when he was going from Springfield to Washington, to be inaugurated, he addressed a crowd from the cars as he was leaving his old home and he spoke as follows: "A duty devolves on me, which is perhaps, greater than has devolved on any other man since the days of Washington. He would never have succeeded except for the aid of Divine Providence upon which he at all times relied. I feel that I cannot succeed without the same divine aid, and in the same Almighty Being I place my reliance for support and I hope that you, my friends, will all pray that I may receive that divine aid without which I cannot succeed, but with which success is certain." At another time, when our armies were meeting with reverses and the destiny of the nation seemed hanging in a balance, President Lincoln appointed a day for prayer for the success of our armies in the following words:
"Whereas, When our beloved country once by the blessings of God united, prosperous and happy, is now afflicted with factions and civil wars, it is fit for us to recognize the handoff God in this terrible visitation and in sorrowful remembrance of our own faults and crimes as a nation and as individuals, to humble ourselves before Him and to pray for His mercy - to pray that we may be spared further punishment (though most justly deserved), that our armies may be helped and be made effectual for the re-establishment of law and order and peace throughout the country, and that the inestimable boon of civil and religious liberty, earned under His guidance and blessing, by the labor and suffering of our fathers, may be restored in all its original excellence.
"Therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, president of the United States, do appoint the last Thursday in September next, as a day of humiliation, prayer and fasting, for all the people of the nation, and I do earnestly recommend to all the people and especially to all ministers and teachers of religion, of all denominations, and to all the heads of families, to keep that day according to their several creeds and modes of worship, in all humility and with all religious solemnity to the end that the united prayers of the nation may ascend to the throne of grace and bring down plentiful blessings upon our country. - Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States"
The above proclamation shows his dependence upon a higher power. No president ever showed such faith in Almighty God during such a momentous crisis as the one he was called to pass through. A calm trust in God was the loftiest characteristic in the life of Abraham Lincoln. He had learned this long ago. "I would rather my son would be able to read the bible than to own a farm if he can have but one," said his mother. The bible was Abraham Lincoln's guide.
A lady who was interested in religious work had occasion to have several interviews of a business nature with Lincoln. He was very much impressed with the earnestness of purpose which she manifested and on one occasion after she had accomplished the object of her visit he said to her: "I have formed a very high opinion of your Christian character and now as we are alone I have a mind to ask you to give me in brief your idea of what constitutes a born religious experience." The lady replied at some length that in her judgment it consisted of a conviction of one's own sinfulness and weakness and personal need of the Savior for strength and support. She said that views of mere doctrine might and would differ, but when one was really brought to feel the need of divine help and to seek the aid of the Holy Spirit for strength and guidance it was satisfactory evidence that he had been born again." This was the substance of her reply. When she had concluded Mr. Lincoln was thoughtful for a few minutes and then said very earnestly: "If what you have told me is a correct view of this great subject I can say with sincerity that I hope I am a Christian. I had lived until my boy Willie died without fully realizing these things. That blow overwhelmed me and showed me my weakness as I had never felt it before, and if I can take what you have told me as a test, I think I can safely say that I know something of that change you speak of. I will further add that it has been my intention for some time at a suitable opportunity, to make a public religious profession." This shows his deep religious conviction.
Take Abraham Lincoln and judge him by what standard you will and he stands head and shoulders above his fellows. He was born for a great mission and well did he fill it. He fought the good fight and kept the faith.