288 replies to this topic

[Antti]

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Originally posted by gravitycreep


Just my opinion.

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Originally posted by BlueCordFFA


Pathetic.

Judging opinions, now that is pathetic.

[Kaleidoscope]

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Originally posted by BlueCordFFA


Pathetic.

Gravitycreep just gave a very intelligent and well composed idea.  And this is your answer?  I wouldn't give you an A+ in debate today :)

I didn't see the comment as particularly racist either, and I think I'm fairly sensitive to those issues.  As I said in the original FFH thread, I think it's more misinformed than anything.

It's all in how you read it, not having read the preamble to this particular post, I'd say it was about religion running a government,  not about racial superiority or inferiority.

And I disagree with you about the holocaust card Eric.  I don't think you can ever play that enough actually considering the horror that went on and how few people wanted to help the Jews and others that were being targeted.  The fact is that Jews/Israel are still being targeted by a large Muslim faction and that's simply unacceptable.

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by Angel Sigh


And I disagree with you about the holocaust card Eric.  I don't think you can ever play that enough actually considering the horror that went on and how few people wanted to help the Jews and others that were being targeted.  The fact is that Jews/Israel are still being targeted by a large Muslim faction and that's simply unacceptable.

  


Well it comes down to it being played by people in Isreal as a means to promote the idea that Jews were persecuted and not whether I personally find it tiring or old or offensiveor whatever.

I think the holocaust is a very important lesson not on the grounds specifically for Jews but any race or nationality that is targeted for annihilation.

I agree with much of what you said. I believe that this was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. There are racists out there and by calling every Tom, Dick or Jim Berry a racist you weaken its meaning to the point where any disagreement with anything Israeli or Jewish-related becomes racist. I think it becomes a defense mechanism.

There are people out there that really hate Jews. I mean really hate them. Why not save the racist comments for them.

[Kaleidoscope]

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[i]Originally posted by mountainbed9
every Tom, Dick or Jim Berry

Okay now that was extremely witty and funny :)

I think Israel does still need to be vigilant and keep good PR because the vast majority of the middle east would like nothing better than to see the entire race annihilated.  And while there are still people walking around this earth with tattooed numbers on their arms, it's not playing a "card".

I don't deny them their right to say look what happened to us while you watched. I extend the same to the Rwandans and Cambodians as well, both of which received no compensation.

I think a major confusion lies in that the Jewish religion is also considered a race, and that's very unusual.

[MurmursAdministrator]

"Playing a card?"

How is having a quarter of my family anihilated playing a "card"?

Explain it Eric. I'm all ears.

Ethan

[cjw]

What did get me in the initial statement was the comparism of Judism to some sort of "cult". All in all the whole quote was dumb and based on nothing, really.

Now saying that this justifies it and makes it acceptable is not right either. That means that anyone could say whatever he or she wants, as long as it sounds dumb and is based on nothing. For example, a nice statment you often hear in Germany is "Oh all those forgeiners take our jobs! They are responsible that we are unemployed!". Now that is majorly dumb but it still doesn't make it acceptable for me. I can't just disgard such a statement.

As for the whole "playing the holocaust card" stuff. Well, that was pretty low. Does in your opinion the US have a Sep. 11th card now that they can play for a while? That is quite an intellectual basis to start a discussion and underline a thesis.

[seven_arts]

hmmm... strange how things can be perceived sometimes. obviously most of you criticizing Jim haven't even read the thread in question. the way it looked to me, he started a thread stating his views, and the main thrust of the thread at the beginning was that the US media did not portray both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict-- he was complaining that the media portrayed only pro-Israeli sentiments.

then some user who has never posted before on the board begins attacking and dissecting every sentence of his posts, which seems like a pretty antagonistic way of debating.  i don;t think the remark in question was rascist; from what i know of jim, that's the last thing i'd think to call him.  just my views, for what little they're worth, considering that most of you know i'm a moderator over there.  anyway, thats all i'm gonna say on this subject, but you all should really read the whole thread before you start talking about a guy you really don't know.

[Antti]

Thank you Eddie. I was waiting for your opinion as you know him better than any of us do.

[MurmursAdministrator]

I read the thread. I don't think it warranted an anti-semetic (not racist) remark. Do you? And should Joni have not nitpicked and just argued in broad statements?

I don't see anything wrong with rebuttals such as what was posted.

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by ethank
"Playing a card?"

How is having a quarter of my family anihilated playing a "card"?

Explain it Eric. I'm all ears.

Ethan

It was a figure of speech that I used albeit one that might have been taken out of context.

In issues relative to Israel many times the issue of the holocaust is used as a defense of the situation, aka we cannot let the holocaust happen again. This to me promotes the connection between the holocaust and being Jewish, thus making it a religious one.

I think we all can agree that the events of the holocaust were deplorable and most likely one of the worst events of the 20th century. And many times the emotional response to supporting Isreal is the holocaust. Its been used here before. But as Christie mentioned this is not the only case where this has occurred. Much of what has happened in Isreal is not technically the fault of Israelis but a sympathetic gesture by the powers of the world to give the land of Israel to the Jews. This has obviously sparked a lot of heated debate for the last 60 years or so.

As I mentioned before. The war in Yugoslavia was based upon the same religious differences that are shown here. Many of the issues in Kashmir are based on the same religious differences between Pakistan which is predominately Muslim to India which is predominately hindu. In Jim's statement was my disagreement that this is the only case that religion is used to define a nation. There have been alot. My using the "Holocaust Card" was just a means to show people that yes, the issues in Isreal ARE based on religion.

In our society here in the US, the issues in Israel are probably more common to everyday people because out of world events that are communicated to us, the issues there have high visibility. And as Christie mentioned being "Jewish" is not only a race but a religion.  To me, it would be difficult to put the Jews in the situation with the holocaust now because the situation during WWII and now are very different. There are people that want to kill Jews just as there are people that want to kill Arabs and People from the United States. Do you think there arent Jews that feel they would rather totally get rid of the Palestinian State? There are Arabs that want to get rid of the United States as there are Americans who would like to see certain parts of the Arab world get destroyed off the map. And I think that events from the Holocaust can help people learn from every one of these situations.

[Mankind]

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Originally posted by seven_arts
hmmm... strange how things can be perceived sometimes. obviously most of you criticizing Jim haven't even read the thread in question.

Agreed.  

This thread makes it sound like this quote was just slapped in the middle of the front page.


Its actually part of a big debate about Israel and Palestine, in which, Joni reiterates:

1.  the need for people not to be so biased.
2.  not to take things on face value.
3.  to always research stuff as best as possible.

Yet, posting over here, makes no attempt to talk about the context the post was made in, makes no attempt to post the whole of Jims post (yes, that quote is only a portion of it) or offer a link to where people might make their own judgement about the comment.

I found from what Joni posted over at myREM to be very level-headed and he raised some interesting points about bias.  I find it a shame that his thoughts about perception of Israel cannot be extended to other areas of discussion.


(you will need to log in to read it, I recommend you do before making any judgements about it: http://forum.myrem.c...p?threadid=6041)


Thats all I can really comment about.  Yes, I'm from myREM and yes I rarely post here, I just find it a shame that the whole story is not getting posted about over here.


I'm not going to make any judgements about what Jim said, only he can argue for or against that.  I'm just here to make sure that people try to read the thread in full before making a judgement.

[Kaleidoscope]

Aren't all religions cults really?

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by cjw


As for the whole "playing the holocaust card" stuff. Well, that was pretty low. Does in your opinion the US have a Sep. 11th card now that they can play for a while? That is quite an intellectual basis to start a discussion and underline a thesis.

Is there "The Events of September 11th Card"?

there definitely is.

I think you see it a lot now. Just last week the FBI was given additional powers basically because of the events of September 11th.  For awhile songs were not allowed to be played on the radio based on the "Events of September 11th".

Its changed the way we Americans think.

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by Angel Sigh
Aren't all religions cults really?

Pretty much. At least that is what I believe.

Using the word cult can mean something negative though but not necessarily. I guess its one of those "Internet Context" Thingys...

[Kaleidoscope]

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Originally posted by mountainbed9



Pretty much. At least that is what I believe.

Using the word cult can mean something negative though but not necessarily. I guess its one of those "Internet Context" Thingys...

I see it as yet another way that religious people try to exclude people from their "heavens", you know kind of qualifying what is a religion vs. cult, etc.


oops, i'm veering off topic again :(

[MurmursAdministrator]

The Zionist movement has traces to antiquity. Most recently the movement was in the late 1890's. The Israel national anthem came out of the 1890's actually.

My disagreement and my reason for calling Jim and anti-semite stems not from his stating about Israel and Judaism, as Israel and Judaism go hand in hand, as evidenced by all our prayers. No, my issue was with him calling my religion, culture and ethnicity a "cult."

No, not all religions are "cults."

I'm athieist, I don't believe in the traditional notion of "god." Yet I am still Jewish. I plan to raise my kids as Jews. Judiaism is something beyond just religion. It dictates how I was raised, morals, values, ethics, etc. Because its not a religion that prostlatizes, and traditionally frowned on intermarriage, it has solidifed into an ethnicity. I'm an aschenazi Jew, just as Joni is half aschenazi and sfardic.

So calling it a "cult" is an insult.

Oh, and I read that entire thread. Have been following it for a while.

[BlueCordFFA]

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Originally posted by Antti




Judging opinions, now that is pathetic.

Judging opinions pathetic?  We can't pass comments on opinions?  Maybe my one word response wasn't the most articulate but then saying that a blatantly racist comment is 'inappropriate' truly is pathetic Antti.   We all judge other peoples opinions and either agree or disagree or we wouldn't enter into any kind of debate at all.

Angel Sigh, I read the post by Jim Barry:

"I have this theory about the Jewish religion

He didn't say Israelis or the Israel government, he said the jewish religion.

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it's not so much a religion, as it is a cult like organisation.

that is a pretty emphatic statement.  

I don't believe Gravitycreep did present a well composed idea, to suggest that Barry's theories exist in some sort of moral vacuum completely divorced from Mr Barry himself is deceiptful and plain ludicrous.  

Thankyou for the dictionary definitions Gravitycreep,  most illuminating; we all know what a theory is, simply saying something does not make it a theory.  The racism in Barry's statement was hardly even implied: 'Jews are arrogant' their religion is nothing more than a 'cult', their children are 'programed'.

At the very least Barry shows profound ignorance:

"do we see any country professing their existence on a religious basis as the Jewish religion does with Israel? No."

  Err yes we do!  Have a think about that one Mr Barry.  

At worst he shows himself to be a rascist, a pretty low level and uninformed one but a rascist and an antisemite all the same.

david

[Kaleidoscope]

I'm pretty ill informed on all religions, but i'm curious :)

What do you consider a cult, and how does it differ from an organized religion like Judaism Ethan?

[Kaleidoscope]

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Originally posted by BlueCordFFA
Barry's statemant was hardly even implied: 'Jews are arrogant' their religion is nothing more than a 'cult', their children are 'programed'.

david

Well like I said, it's difficult because Judaism is both a religion and a race. When I first read it I interpreted it as questioning the religion and not the race.  So... technically it's not racist.

But reading that quote again, it's pretty harsh I agree.  I'm not sure how Judaism could NOT be a religion. If so then none of Christianity is either since it's based on Judaism.  Lots of catch 22s there.

[DrinkTheElixir]

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Originally posted by ethank
The Zionist movement has traces to antiquity. Most recently the movement was in the late 1890's. The Israel national anthem came out of the 1890's actually.

My disagreement and my reason for calling Jim and anti-semite stems not from his stating about Israel and Judaism, as Israel and Judaism go hand in hand, as evidenced by all our prayers. No, my issue was with him calling my religion, culture and ethnicity a "cult."

No, not all religions are "cults."

I'm athieist, I don't believe in the traditional notion of "god." Yet I am still Jewish. I plan to raise my kids as Jews. Judiaism is something beyond just religion. It dictates how I was raised, morals, values, ethics, etc. Because its not a religion that prostlatizes, and traditionally frowned on intermarriage, it has solidifed into an ethnicity. I'm an aschenazi Jew, just as Joni is half aschenazi and sfardic.

So calling it a "cult" is an insult.

Oh, and I read that entire thread. Have been following it for a while.

I agree, calling all religions cults is pretty insulting (sorry Christie but I disagree)  I
I read the thread.  I found it offensive.  I thought it to be racist.  It made me feel sick,  That is my reaction.