288 replies to this topic

[Kaleidoscope]

Grace,
I hope you don't take my comments as questioning the validity of your religion. I'm just asking questions about all religions, not about the priniciples because I can read that in a book, but people's interpretation and feelings about their religion because that's where the interesting part lies.  It was never my intention to make anyone defensive, but just to encourage an open exchange of ideas.  Anyways, this isn't the thread to discuss religious ideas, so I'm sorry I got off track there.

I asked before if Jim was coming from a Christian, Atheist, or Muslim background and to me that makes a difference.  I've seen lately a lot of "Christians" (born again baptists I think) saying that Catholicism is a cult, and using the term in the derogatory fashion.  That is just as ridiculous as Jim's Statement. How can you call a religion that your religion is based out of be a cult and your religion is not.  A muslim point of view would obviously have it's own political implications.

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by DrinkTheElixer


The Catholic church is changing, it's views on many things have evolved.  This is more readily seen in your local church as oposed to the higher level.  You know Christi, like most religions, Catholicism is not perfect.  I question my faith always, I debate the point with my priest.  He is open minded....maybe more open minded than most.

This is more of a subjective manner rather than something true. The local catholic church is very much branded in its local ways. Sure there are more free thinking Catholics out there but there are also Catholics in many parishes that are very conservative. This factor is based on Geographic locale, the prevalent societal issues of the area among other things.

I have heard stories from Catholic friends that if they were to have an abortion or someone they knew they were not welcome to go to service. This doesnt sound open-minded to me.

And considering some of the issues that is facing the Catholic Church right now they are not a good example about open-mindedness. The bishop of the Chicago Catholic Archdiocese has the females hopping mad with his statements that a priest molesting a female is not as bad as him molesting a male.

[DrinkTheElixir]

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Originally posted by mountainbed9


This is more of a subjective manner rather than something true. The local catholic church is very much branded in its local ways. Sure there are more free thinking Catholics out there but there are also Catholics in many parishes that are very conservative. This factor is based on Geographic locale, the prevalent societal issues of the area among other things.

I have heard stories from Catholic friends that if they were to have an abortion or someone they knew they were not welcome to go to service. This doesnt sound open-minded to me.

I think that you are right Eric....and that is what I was trying to say.  Local parishes are in a dilemma, they want people to attend, but are painfully aware that people are staying away because they are not prepared to accept some of the things that are promoted by strict Catholicism.

I maybe have had a better experience than most.  The priest in my parish is very understanding, to the point when speaking about issues regarding marriage....he will say first that he has no experience of such a union.  And therefor is very careful to offer strong opinions on it.  

Thank god that I go to a church that would not turn anyone away, no matter what there situation.  I would be appalled if someone was turned away because they had, had an abortion.  Hand on heart, this would not happen here....I cannot vouch for every catholic church however.

The trauma of abortion cannot be underestimated.  I have lost a child....and I do not think for one moment that someone who is in a position where abortion is there only path, would feel any less pain than I did when I lost my baby.  For this reason, I would never turn my back on somone in this situation.  Neither would I frequent a church who who would endorse such callousness.

Like many religions, the Catholic church has extremism within it.  I am fortunate enough to be able to visit a church where exclusion is frowned upon.  In this sense, maybe my experience is unique.

[DrinkTheElixir]

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Originally posted by Angel Sigh
Grace,
I hope you don't take my comments as questioning the validity of your religion. I'm just asking questions about all religions, not about the priniciples because I can read that in a book, but people's interpretation and feelings about their religion because that's where the interesting part lies.  It was never my intention to make anyone defensive, but just to encourage an open exchange of ideas.  Anyways, this isn't the thread to discuss religious ideas, so I'm sorry I got off track there.

I didn't take offence Christie, you made an interesting point.  My experience of Catholicism has been a good one.  I went through a very long period where I didn't go to any church....and that was a good experience also.  I was just worried that if I have to talk about Catholicism, it would be shit boring for everybody and bogg down the thread:) I don't want people to think that I am a bible basher.....because I am not.  I tend not to talk about religion much, as it is boring after a while for people...and it isn't my favourite subject (check my other threads for evidence of that!);)

I prefer talking about sex.

;)

[Kaleidoscope]

The thing that confuses me Grace is that I see alot of that extremism coming from the "leader" of the religion, the pope.  It's great to say that you have an individual church that is responsive, but when the leader of the religion is extreme, it clouds everything in my mind.  But I guess that's not unlike our own government :)

[DrinkTheElixir]

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Originally posted by Angel Sigh
The thing that confuses me Grace is that I see alot of that extremism coming from the "leader" of the religion, the pope.  It's great to say that you have an individual church that is responsive, but when the leader of the religion is extreme, it clouds everything in my mind.  But I guess that's not unlike our own government :)

You are right there....absolutely....The pope would not change his extreme views on Catholicism.  There is too much history preceding what the Catholic Church is today.  If he did make a radical change in his views, it would probably create chaos....however, local priests are able to be a little more pragmatic approach to an individuals situation.

[lotte]

This is just a side note but I was in Urban Outfitters last week and they have all this goofy, kitch stuff that you can buy.
Fun stuff mostly and then I saw a Jesus Action Figure.
Now, as a Catholic, I wasn't completely outraged or anything, but I did wonder at what point it was okay to make light of my faith.
I spent a little bit of time thinking about why it seems okay to make fun of some religious things and not others.
I don't think Islamic toys would go down so well.
I'm not entirely sure what I think of this.
I don't want to be a person who gets upset about things like people thinking a Jesus Action figure is a hip, ironic apartment accessory.
I kinda like being able to not care..
I mean, I know what I think and believe- it would take a whole lot more than that to rock that.

I'm not really making a good response to the debate here, I'm just talking about my feelings.
I mean there are certainly laughable things about the Catholic church; I know that.
I was more interested in what it's okay to ridicule and what's not.

[Kaleidoscope]

I know what you mean Lotte. I think the same thing when I see those "hip" hindu god lunchboxes or buddha shirts.

[mountainbed9]

Well there is a lot of terrible things about the catholic church that is only now being realized.

The pope is built on history but many of these bishops taking things into their own hands and avoiding the hurtful truths of the catholic church is deplorable. Too many bishops turned their heads.

I dont mind the pope.

[mountainbed9]

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Originally posted by Angel Sigh
I know what you mean Lotte. I think the same thing when I see those "hip" hindu god lunchboxes or buddha shirts.

I am waiting for T-Shirts that state "Father Jims Summer Camp for Boys"

[DrinkTheElixir]

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Originally posted by mountainbed9
Well there is a lot of terrible things about the catholic church that is only now being realized.

The pope is built on history but many of these bishops taking things into their own hands and avoiding the hurtful truths of the catholic church is deplorable. Too many bishops turned their heads.

I dont mind the pope.

If we are talking about various stories in the media where priests have abused children then I have to agree again. Like most positions of power, there will always be someone willing to abuse it.  The fact that someone in a position of religious power is prepared to do this, is all the more sickening.

It shows everyone  regardless, if you are a priest....you are not immune to human faults, sickness.....and even depravity.  The Church has been shown to protect priestswho have done terrible things....they have been exposed and quite rightfully so. They should not be above the law.

It is disgusting, but I don't for one minute assume that every senior member of the church would agree that covering up these things is right.  Within any establishment or religion there are the corrupt, insane and sick. Thankfully also there are truly good people with good intentions and ideals.

The Catholic church is not unique in the fact that they have people within it who are not all that they seem.

But.....talking about Catholicism is getting way off topic.  And I am starting to bore myself;)

[Joni Smeke]

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Originally posted by mountainbed9


And to Joni, I am not going to give you credit for not doing that but you aren't the only representative of Isreal. You might be good and not mention it but many others do. Does this make it right? No it doesnt but it puts the perception that religion is a VERY important topic.

I don't ask you to give me credit becuase I don't do that... I only say that I do it now, because this has nothing to do with opinions. The remark was racist.

[OneArpeggioPete]

elax - alright, fair enough... :) i guess distinguishing between ethnicity and race is a point we should all leave to people who actually know about genetics... ;)

lotte - why is it that i alwys seem to run into people who were brought up as catholics and automatically assume they have a monopoly on jesus? i was brought up a christian, too, a lutheran one, michael stipe was brought up a christian, a methodist one, aggy was brought up a christian, an orthodox one, someone else was brought up a christian, a coptic one, and again someone else was brought up a christian, a pentecostal, baptist, adventist, calvinist, prebyterian, whatever one. we were all brought up to believe in the sacrifice of jesus on good friday. you see where i'm driving at? as a lutheran (and even as an agnostic one who actually does not believe in organised religion) i feel hurt by that. living in a country that was, up to a very short time ago, practically ruled by the catholic church, i am often asked by people of my parent's generation what religion i am. they can't imagine that anyone who's not a catholic can actually be a christian. i am sure you're not closed-minded like some of them can be, but still, you carry that automatic assumption with you. i don't feel hurt by a jesus actionman, i think it's funny, but don't you think i have the right to feel hurt by one as a christian of a non-catholic denomination? i feel these basic assumptions are just something we all have to keep in check, that's why i'm posting this, fully realising that it's pretty off topic. it just hit my eye...

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[Joni Smeke]

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Originally posted by OneArpeggioPete
hummm... sorry, i hate to say it, but to me this does not sound blatantly anti-semitic or racist. to me this sounds more likely crudely and ignorantly anti-zionistic...

Well he said it about the jewish people all over the world... and not about Israelis.

Actually zionists are people who wanted to have a coutnry, doesn't matter where. The fact that they are named for Jerusalem doesn't mean a thing. Actually Herzel, the first person who thought about having a country, wanted Uganda and Egpyt.

Another Zionist bought lands in Argentina.

The fact that he was saying it about jews make it antisemitic.

About your nationality?, well congratualtions for the victory in the world cup series! :p

[lily]

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Originally posted by OneArpeggioPete
could we please leave the word racism out of this? as ethan pointed out to so rightly, the word jewish describes an ethnicity, not a race. anti-semitic - fair enough (of you consider it that, which i don't), racist - no! by calling an anti-semitic statment racist you basically subscribe to the view of the world that brought about the shoa. please mind your language, pretty please? :(

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

finally someone puts it the right way, thanx arpeggio.

[Joni Smeke]

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Originally posted by gravitycreep


I don't believe he was showing any animosity or prejudice towards the Jewish race.  He was expressing a theory (speculation:  abstract thought or contemplation) of his that he had come to based on his contemplation of the Jewish religion.  Whether he totally believes in this theory is irrelevant with regards to racism, as even this theory doesn't project animosity.  Theories don't constitute a set way of thinking.

He made a generalization of jews, and talked about them as a "cult". I didn't like that remark of the "temple school". I found his quote offensive.

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I believe Mr. Barry was expressing a theory, and theories are unproven ideas.  How can you classify this statement as racist when it has nothing to do with racism?  Is it because you yourself don't agree with the theory and can find no other way to discuss it, therefore resorting to calling his statement "racist"?

believe me, many things were said to me and I had many discussions... I disagreed with many theories, but none of those had the antisemitic smell that came from this one.

If it has nothing to do with racism... Where is the limit?, Who are you to decide?, Who am I to decide?, I think it's all in the eyes of the beholder. I let people judge.

[OneArpeggioPete]

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Originally posted by Joni Smeke


Well he said it about the jewish people all over the world... and not about Israelis.

Actually zionists are people who wanted to have a coutnry, doesn't matter where. The fact that they are named for Jerusalem doesn't mean a thing. Actually Herzel, the first person who thought about having a country, wanted Uganda and Egpyt.

Another Zionist bought lands in Argentina.

how did a very wise jew once say? "if the english really felt the urge to give us land that wasn't theirs in the first place, why didn't they give us switzerland?" ;) his name escapes me right now, but he definetly had a point...

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The fact that he was saying it about jews make it antisemitic.

religiously anti-semitic, not racially anti-semitic, can we agree on that? :)

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About your nationality?, well congratualtions for the victory in the world cup series! :p

thanks! :) and more victories are to come, woohooo! *g* sorry, i'm representative of my generation, we've been so bashed into feeling self-conscious and guilty about being german that it's a wonder i dare look a jew into the eye...  you rock! :)

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

p.s. thank you lily... :)

[Antti]

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Originally posted by Joni Smeke

I let people judge.

?

[Joni Smeke]

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Originally posted by mountainbed9
  

There are people out there that really hate Jews. I mean really hate them. Why not save the racist comments for them.

Most of them don't show it. How can you find out who they are?

I od save the comments. I never used it before. I did it now. The conclusion is simple.

[Joni Smeke]

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Originally posted by OneArpeggioPete


how did a very wise jew once say? "if the english really felt the urge to give us land that wasn't theirs in the first place, why didn't they give us switzerland?" ;) his name escapes me right now, but he definetly had a point...

Definetly. As I said to Eric, Argentina was an option too at some point, at least Patagonia. It's such a beautiful place that it makes me think that we are sooooo stupid for not taking it... :)

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religiously anti-semitic, not racially anti-semitic, can we agree on that? :)

Agreed.

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thanks! :) and more victories are to come, woohooo! *g* sorry, i'm representative of my generation, we've been so bashed into feeling self-conscious and guilty about being german that it's a wonder i dare look a jew into the eye...  you rock! :)

You can look me in the eye only if you're pretty short... :p

About the victories... they'll come till your team meets with Argentina... I smell a vengance in the air... :D