72 replies to this topic

[Caleb Kyzer]

if he's never heard man on the moon, maybe he hasn't heard any of automatic (well, maybe everybody hurts in some version, since it's been covered a few times), so i would just send him the CD.  it's arguably their best album, and would make a for a nice, late Christmas present. i gave it to my sister as a Christmas present back in '92.

[welliwonder]

stipeeyes, on 06 January 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Michael had said he couldn't bare knowing that a certain city would be the last time he sang Man on the Moon.  His comment really didn't make that much sense because  obviously he does know the last time he sang that song live.

I heard that interview and it made perfect sense - he means he's glad that last time he sang it ( Mexico or wherever )he didn't know it was to be the last time- in other words he couldn't face the idea of a farewell tour , singing songs knowing it would be the last time in that city , it would be too sad and emotionally draining. I saw the Jam play their last ever concert and it was flagged up weeks before that it would be the last ,and  so every time they played a favourite song it was very poignant and actually made it all a bit wierd. So glad r.e.m. didnt do it that way.

[MeanCat]

Driver Nate, on 05 January 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

If you believe R.E.M. decided to disband because of that locked discussion you linked to, you're seriously off of your motherfucking rocker.

I'm totally with you and Grace on this one, but as we all know, we are talking to a brick wall here. Sadly, you cannot help someone who is this delusional.

[welliwonder]

High_Speed_Train, on 06 January 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I hope this clarifies: if Collapse into Now had dominated the music charts, if it had stayed on top of them for several weeks, to the point where Warner wouldn't want to let R.E.M. go (because they'd be providing a good cash flow with those album sales, downloads) then Michael Stipe, Mike Mills and Peter Buck would have reconsidered the decision to call it a day. They'd still be relevant, on top of their game and commercially succesful. The no tour decision would have been revised.

So the fact that Collapse into Now was written as a goodbye , with Michael waving goodbye on the cover, the cyclical Blue/Discoverer ending, All the Best, Walk it back and other songs saying 'goodbye' would all have been forgotten about if it had sold better?? Quick airbrush out the wave someone! Who do you think this band are? Give them some credit , they made the decision years ago and stuck by it , and selling millions records ( a feat they'd achieved numerous times in their long career) wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

[Caleb Kyzer]

on the other hand, if they were already talking about disbanding on the accelerate tour, wouldn't they have known (or guessed) that the Mexico show was their last?  but maybe at that point, even if they had decided to quit, they might not have known for sure if they would do any promo shows or tour for their last album.  while it would've been great to see them (and see the CiN songs live), i'm kinda glad the way they did it. it was original.

[High_Speed_Train]

welliwonder, on 07 January 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

So the fact that Collapse into Now was written as a goodbye , with Michael waving goodbye on the cover, the cyclical Blue/Discoverer ending, All the Best, Walk it back and other songs saying 'goodbye' would all have been forgotten about if it had sold better?? Quick airbrush out the wave someone! Who do you think this band are? Give them some credit , they made the decision years ago and stuck by it , and selling millions records ( a feat they'd achieved numerous times in their long career) wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

This is exactly my point (what I emphasized in the text).

On the other hand, you have the benefit of watching the events after September 21st.

Before September 21st the waving good-bye in the cover was just speculation. Even people from R.E.M. officialdom (and some of them are reading this) insisted that All the Best wasn´t a good-bye, some even recalled "Leave" from 1996 and the band didn´t end back then.

Read murmurs before September 21st and there´s a lot of people convinced that Collapse wasn´t a goodbye. There was even hope that a self-released album would appear, as announced by Matthew Perpetua in July. As I said, you´re watching events after the disbandment, which is an added benefit, but it´s not helpful when wanting to isolate the events and put them into their perspective.

The fact is, had R.E.M. decided to continue (in the wake of extremely positive market reaction to Collapse into Now) they would just have come up with other interpretations for the songs.

Don´t forget that saying farewell is not the only theme bounding Collapse into Now. There´s also disappointments and failed relationships (Walk it Back) there´s also optimism (DIscoverer, Everyday is yours to win) and the bright hopes of a new millenium (Blue), so they could easily have built alternative interpretations.

[welliwonder]

High_Speed_Train, on 07 January 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

This is exactly my point (what I emphasized in the text).

On the other hand, you have the benefit of watching the events after September 21st.

Before September 21st the waving good-bye in the cover was just speculation. Even people from R.E.M. officialdom (and some of them are reading this) insisted that All the Best wasn´t a good-bye, some even recalled "Leave" from 1996 and the band didn´t end back then.

Read murmurs before September 21st and there´s a lot of people convinced that Collapse wasn´t a goodbye. There was even hope that a self-released album would appear, as announced by Matthew Perpetua in July. As I said, you´re watching events after the disbandment, which is an added benefit, but it´s not helpful when wanting to isolate the events and put them into their perspective.

The fact is, had R.E.M. decided to continue (in the wake of extremely positive market reaction to Collapse into Now) they would just have come up with other interpretations for the songs.

Don´t forget that saying farewell is not the only theme bounding Collapse into Now. There´s also disappointments and failed relationships (Walk it Back) there´s also optimism (DIscoverer, Everyday is yours to win) and the bright hopes of a new millenium (Blue), so they could easily have built alternative interpretations.

Yes thats fine but for that to work the band have to be collective liars as its themselves that have said the record was written as a goodbye , them that says the disbanding was decided years ago , and them that said it was because they'd done everything they set out to do.

So I can see your point, who wouldn't want mass critical acclaim ? but I dont think they'd be into concocting a story and changing what the songs were about a year after the release. It was a very studied and precise disbanding as you'd expect from the way they ran their very long and successful career.

Having done the same job, successfully for over 30 years, having sold millions and millions of records worldwide, having been one of the biggest bands in the world in the mid 90's , and having reached their 50's with  parents and families to spend more time with etc etc, I dont think selling a few more records would change how all three of them felt.

[High_Speed_Train]

welliwonder, on 07 January 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yes thats fine but for that to work the band have to be collective liars as its themselves that have said the record was written as a goodbye , them that says the disbanding was decided years ago , and them that said it was because they'd done everything they set out to do.

So I can see your point, who wouldn't want mass critical acclaim ? but I dont think they'd be into concocting a story and changing what the songs were about a year after the release. It was a very studied and precise disbanding as you'd expect from the way they ran their very long and successful career.

Having done the same job, successfully for over 30 years, having sold millions and millions of records worldwide, having been one of the biggest bands in the world in the mid 90's , and having reached their 50's with  parents and families to spend more time with etc etc, I dont think selling a few more records would change how all three of them felt.

Again, you're working on assumptions post September 21st. By this same reasoning, wouldn't the liars be those people who said that Collapse into Now was not a good-bye?  people that kept insisting the band had a future together?

[High_Speed_Train]

The band ceased to exist on September 21st. Should just accept that and move on.

[High_Speed_Train]

thorn plucker, on 07 January 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I don't think there's any need to accept it.  After all ... on September 26th (or there abouts) Mike Mills said "There is sadness because I will never play on the same stage as Peter and Michael again."  and yet ... http://www.murmurs.c...music-festival/

I don't think R.E.M. is quite finished yet.

Thank you, that's comforting to hear.

[Driver Nate]

I'm pretty sure Mills meant sharing the stage with Buck and Stipe at the same time. Even then, I wouldn't rule out an impromptu R.E.M. reunion somewhere down the road at the 40 Watt or some similar scenario.

[High_Speed_Train]

thorn plucker, on 07 January 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

No.  My original statement is incorrect.  R.E.M. as we knew it, I think, is finished.  I don't really see an impromptu reunion happening;  I think that they are all happy to be done with it.   I do see Michael, Mike, and Peter continuing to work together though, on the same stage; probably with other musicians.

I hope that that is still comforting High_Speed_Train  

To be honest it isn't in any way comforting that R.E.M. are over or that they'd be engaging in other projects, which frankly are watered down versions of their greatness. I'm not much excited about those projects.

I should have said that your kindness is comforting in this moment when I'm nostalgic about the past.

[Driver Nate]

High_Speed_Train, on 07 January 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

To be honest it isn't in any way comforting that R.E.M. are over or that they'd be engaging in other projects, which frankly are watered down versions of their greatness. I'm not much excited about those projects.

Personally, I love Buck's work with the Minus Five, the Baseball Project, Tuatara, Robyn Hitchcock, the Decemberists and the numerous other artists he's worked with over the years.

[High_Speed_Train]

Driver Nate, on 07 January 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Personally, I love Buck's work with the Minus Five, the Baseball Project, Tuatara, Robyn Hitchcock, the Decemberists and the numerous other artists he's worked with over the years.

I must admit I had a very short-lived honeymoon with Wesley Harding and the King Charles Trio. A few weeks ago I had "Calling off the experiment" on constant rotation. What I like about the song is that it sounds so much like a track off-of Accelerate (I'll make sure to post that in the mandolynbrin thread of songs sounding like R.E.M.). Plus there is that lyric that's pure genious "I'm calling off the experiment, forget the Nobel Prize".

Then I tried to get into Hitchcock and the Minus 3 (or Venus 3, I've lost track of the Venuses and the Minuses and frankly I don't care). When I made the purchasing decision I relied a lot on this thread elsewhere: http://www.stevehoff...p/t-175531.html Basically they say over there that out of the three albums Hitchcock + Venus 3, only Oslo is worth getting.

On that album, "Hurry for the Sky" is a gem. I understand it was composed and written entirely by Peter Buck. I highly recommend everyone to give a listen to that song, it's very powerful.

Then there is the Minus 5. Personally I think this band is spiritually and intellectually closer to Wilco than to R.E.M.

Wilco is a whole other subject, apparently they are supposed to cater to the R.E.M. fanbase more than any other active rock band today. In my opinion, Jeff Tweedy has personal issues that make it hard for me to identify with him, or his lyrics. I prefer what Jay Farrar has done, especially his early Son Volt work.

So, with only a few exceptions, these other projects are O.K., but not enough to constitute a substitute for R.E.M. Basically, a good proportion of the R.E.M. fanbase was left bandless.

[Driver Nate]

I'm not really looking for a "substitute" for R.E.M.  My fandom began to slip back when Bill left but I've continued to buy each new record on the day of release and attend their concerts. In the interim my attention shifted towards other artists but it was never an effort to find a substitute for R.E.M.

[High_Speed_Train]

Driver Nate, on 07 January 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I'm not really looking for a "substitute" for R.E.M.  My fandom began to slip back when Bill left but I've continued to buy each new record on the day of release and attend their concerts. In the interim my attention shifted towards other artists but it was never an effort to find a substitute for R.E.M.

While you, from the beginning, weren't looking for that "substitute" I learnt, album after album, and came to the conclusion that R.E.M. has no substitute.

[rosie]

High_Speed_Train, on 07 January 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

So, with only a few exceptions, these other projects are O.K., but not enough to constitute a substitute for R.E.M. Basically, a good proportion of the R.E.M. fanbase was left bandless.

wow, that's quite a statement. are you really saying that 'a good proportion' of r.e.m. fans liked no other bands?  i'm grateful to the band for so many things, but one is introducing me to countless other great artists.  

for me, there is no substitute for r.e.m., who will always be unique, but that doesn't mean i can't appreciate other artists.

i'm sorry you feel that their other projects are 'watered down versions of their greatness', but isn't that rather dismissive of scott, robyn hitchcock, gary lightbody, colin meloy and all the other artists they've worked with over the years.  i don't think they'd be happy to have their work regarded as nothing more than dilute r.e.m.

[welliwonder]

High_Speed_Train, on 07 January 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Again, you're working on assumptions post September 21st. By this same reasoning, wouldn't the liars be those people who said that Collapse into Now was not a good-bye?  people that kept insisting the band had a future together?

No I'm not. Assumptions? I'm simply believing them when they said they wrote the record as a goodbye .

Yes ,people who said it wasn't a goodbye  were just speculating , because they didnt and couldn't possibly know.

So really you're just saying you don't believe all the recent interviews and think they made the whole CIN goodbye theme up after the event, as a smokescreen for falling album sales ? Fine , you can go with that if you want.I'm just surprised you'd like a band capable of that.

[Pilgrimager]

welliwonder, on 08 January 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

No I'm not. Assumptions? I'm simply believing them when they said they wrote the record as a goodbye .

Yes ,people who said it wasn't a goodbye  were just speculating , because they didnt and couldn't possibly know.

So really you're just saying you don't believe all the recent interviews and think they made the whole CIN goodbye theme up after the event, as a smokescreen for falling album sales ? Fine , you can go with that if you want.I'm just surprised you'd like a band capable of that.

I wonder why they didn't announce it was the last album when it was released? Maybe they thought everyone would accuse them of saying that as a cynical promotional ploy.

[High_Speed_Train]

rosie, on 08 January 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

i'm sorry you feel that their other projects are 'watered down versions of their greatness', but isn't that rather dismissive of scott, robyn hitchcock, gary lightbody, colin meloy and all the other artists they've worked with over the years.  i don't think they'd be happy to have their work regarded as nothing more than dilute r.e.m.

I´m not here to please Meloy, Lightbody or Hitchcock or anybody else. While R.E.M. regards them highly I´m under no obligation to like them and I don´t think that´s going to get me guillotined either. Did you know that I actually purchased The King is Dead, Goodnight Oslo, Tired Pony..? Buying a physical record is quite a statement these days, you really can´t accuse me of dismissing R.E.M. collaborators because I have actually supported their projects, just don´t expect me to get hooked on them the way I did with R.E.M.

welliwonder, on 08 January 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

So really you're just saying you don't believe all the recent interviews and think they made the whole CIN goodbye theme up after the event, as a smokescreen for falling album sales ? Fine , you can go with that if you want.I'm just surprised you'd like a band capable of that.

I never said "they made the whole CiN goodbye theme" that´s just your interpretation of my words. I´ve been saying from the begining: what if, what if, sorry to insist, if Collapse into Now had catapulted R.E.M. back into global stardom?

Since they had already devised a breakup plan, and they had the intention of going ahead with it (just didn´t communicate it to the fans and only to a few associates, but in a very secretive manner) could they have shelved or postponed the breakup and go on as a band for a few more years, probably releasing the final album and going on the very last farewell tour?

And this is pure speculation. I personally think that if Collapse into Now had provided the adecuate momentum, the band would have decided to stay around a few more years.