111 replies to this topic

[Driver Nate]

Several friends of mine have stopped liking R.E.M. at one time or another and very few are fans of their current material. Most of them lost interest a long time ago whether it was with Document, Green, Out of Time, etc. but they all have different dropping off points. It's the sort of intangible something that I'll probably never be able to nail down but something keeps me coming back for more. There have been periods where my interest waned but never to the point where I stopped being a fan completely.

[funkyratchet]

CUYACOAT, on 07 April 2011 - 07:30 AM, said:

But I cannot ignore the past and that wonderful history. Blame REM not me.

By your own argument the band is trying to sound "as much like REM as they could possibly achieve," so perhaps they are not ignoring their own past either.  I assume they are making the music they want to, whether that means making a record that is a purposeful call-back to earlier albums, or simply doing what they do best - sounding like REM.  I can't see how the band is to blame if they're only guilty of making some great records during their career.  I would go as far to say it's also not their fault if you can't listen to the new album on it's own merit, without comparing it to every other thing they've done.  To compare it to their other albums - that's very difficult not to do, and not at all wrong - and not necessarily unfair either - but I wouldn't say it is the band's fault.

By the way, not intending to pick apart your post...you make very valid points, and I can understand coming to feel that way about the band's more recent music.

[iskra]

funkyratchet, on 07 April 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

But there always have been.  "Sidewinder"?  "Pop Song 89"?  I'm not debating the quality of either song, but I wouldn't necessarily call the lyrics "deep" or the music "innovative."

There's too much that I could write about Sidewinder alone so I'll just do this one instead.

Pop Song 89

It was the opening track on the band's first major label release. Given that, it's not hard to see that it was intended to be poking fun at their new platform and audience. Here was a band given the means to reach the entire world via a new deal with Warner and the song can be seen as a playful little anthem announcing their arrival. Since many fans were anticipating the worst would come from the deal, it could also be seen as a good old fashioned F-U to some of the band's naysayers and former fans. "You wanted sell-outs? Well here you @!# go!"

It's also a perfect opener for an album that deals a lot with having (or not having) power. It also works well as a companion piece to The Wrong Child. Compare "I told my friend myself. Those kids are looking at me.. What can I do? What should I do? What do I say?" with "Hello my friend, are you visible today / Should we talk about the government, should we talk about the weather?" Probably not unintentional, and only one of the many clever ways the album addresses themes of power and control. If Pop Song 89 is about people figuring out what to do with themselves given their newfound positions, then Turn You Inside Out can be seen as one of the darker routes to be followed.

The title references the year of its release, but can be seen as a cheeky little nod to the generic pop song formula as well. Its title also references Finest Worksong from the preceding album, as did Radio Song on OOT. I wouldn't be surprised if it was also REM's 89th song. Both musically and lyrically, the song is a clever reworking of "Hello, I Love You", a vapid little number by The Doors that led many of its fans to accuse the band of selling out. Michael's shirtless Jim Morrison-esque posturing in the song's video and live performances just adds to this effect.

Speaking of the video, it was pretty innovative for its time, not just for the nipples (and the method in which they were later censored), but in the way it took the piss about the music video format in general. When the song charted, it was quite unlike anything else out there. While the production sounds a bit dated today, that middle-eastern tinged riff was anything but generic at the time and set it apart from their own material as well as other acts on the charts. True, it isn't one of the most innovative songs the band's put out. That would have defeated the point of it. Regardless, what it lacked in innovation, it more than made up for it in other ways.

Meanwhile, Mine Smell Like Honey is a by-the-numbers rocker about rotten fruit and/or Stipe's testicles.

Nuff said.

[Milsean Cady]

funkyratchet, on 06 April 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:

If I break up with "the one" fifteen years ago, should I still be grumbling and spitting vitriol about her today?

  
Only if she was really, really hot.

Quote

But rather than pointing fingers at the band for making inferior music, don't be so averse to simply saying, "You know, maybe this just isn't for me anymore."

I agree it's no good to point fingers at the band, because disliking the current stuff could be as much about us as it is about them, if not moreso. The band evolves, and if you don't evolve with them, that's hardly their fault. They do what they do regardless of whether they expect you (meaning me) to come along for the ride, and that's part of what keeps their integrity intact.

But it's hard to say "You know, maybe this just isn't for me anymore" when it was for you for so long, and so very much so.

I myself am pretty comfortable with where my emotions sit with the band at present. I guess I'm trying to feel out how others, who have been more vitriolic, might feel.

Incidentally, I went on a roadtrip to Wisconsin yesterday and played CIN twice in a row. I didn't even skip AAAA. And I was really digging it. Even the Elton-Johnesque cheese fest that is "Walk It Back." The album, from beginning to end to beginning again, is pretty damn good.

[ebowtheloser]

collapse into now, on 06 April 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

. Some major ex members of Murmurs have been less than impressed.

Oh MY GOD!!! Not just regular ex-members of Murmurs, but MAJOR ex-members! And they are "less than impressed!" For God's sake, I hope someone has put Peter Buck on suicide watch!

Jesus Christ. Get a grip.

"The Dogs Howl, but the caravan rolls on." Truman Capote

[Sweet Fanny Addams]

ebowtheloser, on 07 April 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

Oh MY GOD!!! Not just regular ex-members of Murmurs, but MAJOR ex-members! And they are "less than impressed!" For God's sake, I hope someone has put Peter Buck on suicide watch!

Jesus Christ. Get a grip.

"The Dogs Howl, but the caravan rolls on." Truman Capote

Best post yet.
Now you mention it, who are these MAJOR ex-members of murmurs and how do you know what they think? Is there a MAJOR murmurs ex-member board where they go to whinge  about CIN?
Never mind, I find myself not giving a shit about these ex people who have some kind of higher standard ears than the rest of us and their  opinions.

[beatadrum]

iskra, on 07 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

The title references the year of its release, but can be seen as a cheeky little nod to the generic pop song formula as well. Its title also references Finest Worksong from the preceding album, as did Radio Song on OOT. I wouldn't be surprised if it was also REM's 89th song.

It's only ever Peter that talks of '89' as year of release, as he did on liners for something or other, Michael names them afaik and it was Michael's typo 4.E.M. that got printed initially on Green. It was written in late '87, was known as Pop Song on the Work tour and was released in '88. But you're right, it's in theory the 89th track put out on EP/LP...

Chronic Town (5)
Murmur (12)
Reckoning (10)
Fables (11)
LRP (12)
Document (11)
Dead Letter Office (15)
Eponymous (12) = 88

[beatadrum]

Sweet Fanny Addams, on 07 April 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:

Best post yet.
Now you mention it, who are these MAJOR ex-members of murmurs and how do you know what they think? Is there a MAJOR murmurs ex-member board where they go to whinge  about CIN?
Never mind, I find myself not giving a shit about these ex people who have some kind of higher standard ears than the rest of us and their  opinions.

http://www.elucidations.com

[Sweet Fanny Addams]

beatadrum, on 07 April 2011 - 11:57 PM, said:

http://www.elucidations.com

Um kay. Well for a start, that's in a language I don't know, so I would need a translator.
For all I can tell those people could have hated REM from 1980 onwards,  .
There are 29 members and I don't recognize any names from murmurs, let alone major ones.
It's kinda a non event.
BTW, and for the record while I think CIN is a good album overall, there are songs on it I'll skip, starting with Discoverer. Other tracks are good tunes and the lyrics let them down. MIchael's writing has changed and not for the better. There are odd lyrics which hit home but some just make me cringe. That's been the case with  their more recent albums generally.
I disagree with whoever said bringing Mike's vox more upfront is some kind of attempt to prop up Michael.
I think Mike's singing has been buried in murky mixes for far too long on recent albums. Those 2 voices in harmony are  magic.  
I don't like Reveal. I can barely listen to ATS. Accelerate knocked both those albums into a tin hat, but it's not any kind of big revelation either. This is the best of the post Up albums, in my opinion.

[collapse into now]

ebowtheloser, on 07 April 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

Oh MY GOD!!! Not just regular ex-members of Murmurs, but MAJOR ex-members! And they are "less than impressed!" For God's sake, I hope someone has put Peter Buck on suicide watch!

Jesus Christ. Get a grip.

"The Dogs Howl, but the caravan rolls on." Truman Capote

By major I meant the number of members not quality. Apologies if you misunderstood. Loser by name and nature. Ignore dwindling sales and hardcore fans that are ambivalent. It's big on twitter anyway.

[beatadrum]

Sweet Fanny Addams, on 08 April 2011 - 01:45 AM, said:

Um kay. Well for a start, that's in a language I don't know, so I would need a translator.
For all I can tell those people could have hated REM from 1980 onwards,  .
There are 29 members and I don't recognize any names from murmurs, let alone major ones.
It's kinda a non event.

It was not a serious link...  

[ebowtheloser]

collapse into now, on 08 April 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:

By major I meant the number of members not quality. Apologies if you misunderstood. Loser by name and nature. Ignore dwindling sales and hardcore fans that are ambivalent. It's big on twitter anyway.

Oh, Ok! I see "some major" is now a NUMBER! I had no idea we were engaged in a hardcore statistics experiment. In that case, I bow to your impressive raw data. And I also now see that whether "Some major" is the number SEVEN or the number SIX BILLION it doesn't matter, because I am ignoring the greatest arbiter of musical quality.... RECORD SALES!

Thank God you set me straight on this point. I have to go now, I need to go out and purchase a copy of the Backstreet Boys "Millennium." It sold like 40 million copies! And I bet all the hardcore Backstreet Boys fans LOVED it!!  I can't wait to hear how good it is!

[collapse into now]

This thread is about whether there is a reason de the lack of discussion around here loser. Here are the reasons I pit forward that it could be: shit album released after three other shit albums, terrible marketing, horse piss videos, lots of members leaving due to shit albums or cunts like you. Members who made a lot of posts and stimulated conversation and discussion. Right now it is list your favourite, vote for this song type stuff. That's okay though. It's big on twitter and number one in germany for a week. It could sell 2 copies anyway. It's all about quality. It ranks somewhere between 10-15 in their 15 record career.

[ebowtheloser]

collapse into now, on 08 April 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:

This thread is about whether there is a reason de the lack of discussion around here loser. Here are the reasons I pit forward that it could be: shit album released after three other shit albums, terrible marketing, horse piss videos, lots of members leaving due to shit albums or cunts like you. Members who made a lot of posts and stimulated conversation and discussion. Right now it is list your favourite, vote for this song type stuff. That's okay though. It's big on twitter and number one in germany for a week. It could sell 2 copies anyway. It's all about quality. It ranks somewhere between 10-15 in their 15 record career.

Oh my God! I am laughing my ass off! I can't BELIEVE it only took two posts for you to call me a "cunt"! (Also, pointing out my screen name has the word "loser" in it isn't really a slam, since I picked it. Believe me, I don't have any self-esteem issues.)

Why you would bother posting on a message board (much less expect "stimulating conversations") for a band whose last FOUR ALBUMS you consider to be "shit" is quite beyond me.

You don't deserve Rock n Roll. You make the baby Jesus cry.

[funkyratchet]

iskra, on 07 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

There's too much that I could write about Sidewinder alone so I'll just do this one instead.

Pop Song 89

It was the opening track on the band's first major label release. Given that, it's not hard to see that it was intended to be poking fun at their new platform and audience. Here was a band given the means to reach the entire world via a new deal with Warner and the song can be seen as a playful little anthem announcing their arrival. Since many fans were anticipating the worst would come from the deal, it could also be seen as a good old fashioned F-U to some of the band's naysayers and former fans. "You wanted sell-outs? Well here you @!# go!"

It's also a perfect opener for an album that deals a lot with having (or not having) power. It also works well as a companion piece to The Wrong Child. Compare "I told my friend myself. Those kids are looking at me.. What can I do? What should I do? What do I say?" with "Hello my friend, are you visible today / Should we talk about the government, should we talk about the weather?" Probably not unintentional, and only one of the many clever ways the album addresses themes of power and control. If Pop Song 89 is about people figuring out what to do with themselves given their newfound positions, then Turn You Inside Out can be seen as one of the darker routes to be followed.

The title references the year of its release, but can be seen as a cheeky little nod to the generic pop song formula as well. Its title also references Finest Worksong from the preceding album, as did Radio Song on OOT. I wouldn't be surprised if it was also REM's 89th song. Both musically and lyrically, the song is a clever reworking of "Hello, I Love You", a vapid little number by The Doors that led many of its fans to accuse the band of selling out. Michael's shirtless Jim Morrison-esque posturing in the song's video and live performances just adds to this effect.

Speaking of the video, it was pretty innovative for its time, not just for the nipples (and the method in which they were later censored), but in the way it took the piss about the music video format in general. When the song charted, it was quite unlike anything else out there. While the production sounds a bit dated today, that middle-eastern tinged riff was anything but generic at the time and set it apart from their own material as well as other acts on the charts. True, it isn't one of the most innovative songs the band's put out. That would have defeated the point of it. Regardless, what it lacked in innovation, it more than made up for it in other ways.

Wow...even thought you ended your post with a definitive "Nuff said," as if you were handing down the final word on the matter, I'll go ahead and add my irrelevant postscript.  It wasn't necessary for you to defend the song, although you did a great job of doing so.  My only point was that there have always been songs here and there on their albums that are essentially lighter fare...but not that those songs are inferior to others that are more "meaningful."  I probably could have used other songs to make that point a little better (be it Stand, Shiny Happy People, Near Wild Heaven, We Walk, or whatever).  I generally agree with most everything you said about Pop Song 89, but I do think you're giving the song a little too much credit as far as meaning goes.  I think the lyrics are very purposefully bland/inane/generic, with a purposefully bland/inane/generic title to match, but I wonder how much further the subtext goes beyond that.  You do make a very convincing argument.

iskra, on 07 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

Meanwhile, Mine Smell Like Honey is a by-the-numbers rocker about rotten fruit and/or Stipe's testicles.

And I really think you're selling this song short by not admitting that it could, just as easily, be about farts.

[funkyratchet]

ebowtheloser, on 08 April 2011 - 05:02 AM, said:

Why you would bother posting on a message board (much less expect "stimulating conversations") for a band whose last FOUR ALBUMS you consider to be "shit" is quite beyond me.

My original point, albeit made much more succinctly.

[Mr. Waffle]

funny
I REALLY dont have this feeling

I think the album is awesome, the best since UP
and I put on my personal ranking of greatest REM albums alongside to: Fables, Lifes Rich Pageant, Automatic, NaiHF and UP

(good: Murmur, Reckoning, Document, Out of time, Reveal)
(ok: Accelerate, Green, Monster)
(bad album: Around the sun)


but bad album to REM standards, to me, equals the best album the mortal bands could ever do

[remalba]

What makes you think this album is better than Around the Sun?   ATS has sooo much to rediscover, this album is instantly average and will only go backwards.

[G.K.]

remalba, on 09 April 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

What makes you think this album is better than Around the Sun?   ATS has sooo much to rediscover, this album is instantly average and will only go backwards.

This is your opinion, not Waffle's. Keep it to yourself and don't shove it in his face.

[Mr. Waffle]

remalba
as I said, and G.K. got it: in my PERSONAL ranking....



oh, and by the way, count me in as a "MAJOR ex-members of Murmurs" who really dig this album, since I'm here since 98, almost day one...

ok, every one time of the year I come back and post something (Id stay active on those social groups stuff, I liked that) but this album made me want to discuss it, to come back and talk to the feaks

it has a lot of the Lifes Rich Pageant feeling to me...
it really rocks, I'm in awe