111 replies to this topic

[Driver Nate]

I'm one of the ones that's been trying not to wear out this album and that goes for the early releases from it. Still, once you've heard them, no matter how many times (or how few), the cat is still out of the bag. I've been savoring the record, over all I've probably only listened to it 4-5 times at this point so I'm still getting to know it. So far, there's not one song I want to skip. My first impression of it also remains the same, I haven't liked an album of theirs on first listen this much since New Adventures in Hi-Fi. As someone else also mentioned, I have a feeling it will cause me to look at the previous four studio records in a different light. That said, I haven't gone back and revisited them yet. I'm sure I will once I've had time to fully absorb this one. One sort of ritual I used to have prior to a new R.E.M. album release was to go back and revisit their entire back catalog right up until the release date of the new album. For whatever reason, I haven't done that with the last few records. It's also interesting to me that I only have a desire to listen to the post-Berry records in relation to this new one. I think that's because to me, R.E.M. did become a very different band after he left. I know there's been a lot of debate on that but that's genuinely how I feel. BTW, none of this is meant to write off the I.R.S. era records or the ones they made with Bill on WB. I just think I already know those like the back of my hand at this point so I feel less inclined to listen to them in relation to Collapse Into Now. Funny though that this one seems to have more in common with latter day Bill era R.E.M. than Up, Reveal, Around the Sun or Accelerate.

[MurmursAdministrator]

What's thrilling to me is that this record is appealing to people who are NOT on Murmurs, who lost track of the band.

[MyNameIsDean]

It seems the thing REM have done wrong with this album is make other really great albums before.


I rate this album highly enough that it can stand proud next to all of the others.

[funkyratchet]

Milsean Cady, on 06 April 2011 - 08:30 AM, said:

I think plenty of people are doing the latter part: involving themselves in music that is thrilling. But I'm assuming most people here are not casual R.E.M. fans, but rather fervent ones. They've grown up with the band, or at least, grown into the band in such a fashion that they are moved by them. Once an emotional connection like that evolves, there are expectations and hopes that follow. If people here have expressed negative reactions, it's because they love the band and want them to continue making music that thrills them. It's very hard to just quietly say "I'm not that fond of it" and move on, or to outright ignore it, because there is emotional investment. Say your significant other, with whom you felt you had a really good thing going; perhaps they were "the one," decided to up and leave you, or had a change of heart that you found hard to reconcile with. Would it be more satisfying to simply say, "She's gone. Well, onto another woman,"  or, to talk to others who knew her, loved her, and try to figure out if there is still a chance, what went wrong, was it you, was it her? Can we still be friends? Because after all, there was so much potential, and, well, she still calls from time to time.

That is a great point.  I'm not suggesting a simple and succinct "Ah well, time to find another favorite band," but at some point, whether it's a relationship or rock 'n' roll fandom, it becomes time to move on and find something more fulfilling/healthy/whatever.  If I break up with "the one" fifteen years ago, should I still be grumbling and spitting vitriol about her today?  While the band obviously isn't making the exact same music it was making twenty years ago, it is very reasonable to think that their music simply no longer fits our tastes as closely as it once did.  But maybe it no longer fits our tastes because we have changed as much as, if not more than, the music has in the past two decades.  

You make an excellent point, and I certainly wasn't trying to minimize that emotional connection we feel to the music, though I am admittedly playing devil's advocate a little bit.  For the record, I hear a lot of Out of Time, Automatic, and Hi-Fi in the new album, and I'm a little surprised, but mostly just thrilled, to have a new REM album that still has potential to give me a whole lot more mileage before I've had enough of it.  For those of you who are fervent fans but don't feel that way about it, I can flash back to Around the Sun and imagine how you feel.  But rather than pointing fingers at the band for making inferior music, don't be so averse to simply saying, "You know, maybe this just isn't for me anymore."

[collapse into now]

MurmursAdministrator, on 06 April 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

What's thrilling to me is that this record is appealing to people who are NOT on Murmurs, who lost track of the band.

And the sales support that... No wait. They don't.

I know quite a few lapsed fans who absolutely loath this record. Some major ex members of Murmurs have been less than impressed.

[revealing]

Collapse Into Now is not bad, nor is it great. But it is better than its direct predecessor. It has a nice mix of songs and others' sense of it being somewhat of a look back over a successful career through new tracks is pretty much spot on. I like the first three tracks very much and feel that they are indeed among the strongest on the album; I think that all three of them hearken back to the past while at the same time sounding a bit progressive. I struggled with "Oh My Heart" at first, but now enjoy it (even though I like "Houston" better). "It Happened Today" is also a very strong track; one wouldn't think that devoting about 2/3 of the song to banshee-wailing of old would work, but oddly enough it does. The band comes to its first major blunder with "Every Day Is Yours To Win," however. The song itself is not poorly written, but the production is abysmal! Jackknife should be thoroughly berated for this. If the song was produced with clean guitar, xylophone, etc. and Michael actually sang most of it instead of talk-singing, it would totally work. But the distorted, off-key talk-singing and the instrumentation is just pathetic, not to mention the bridge that goes to nowhere. The band gets its mojo back with "Honey". I don't understand the haters of this track- it's a nice pop song with a wonderful chorus (and the "uhs" make it that much sweeter). "Walk It Back" is then a minor setback. It's not that the quality of the track is subpar- the singing is actually very good- but it's a tad repetitive and I feel that the instrumentation could have been better (either a steel guitar or more reverb). "AAAA" is also pretty average, on par with "I'm Gonna DJ," and I feel like it should be in an Austin Powers movie every time I hear it. "Brando" is good, oblique and mysterious, but I like "On The Fly" better. Then there's "Blue." For me, this track just kills the album. It is an obvious lift of "Country Feedback" (a track that really works), it's too messy with all of the instrumentation, Patti and Michael rushing through his stream of consciousness- there's just no space to breathe during most of it. It actually works for me WHEN there is space to breathe towards the end when Patti is singing and Michael is wording "blue,blue,blue..." Thank God for the coda of "Discoverer" to make it all whole- a wonderful decision on the band's part.

[Red1]

Couldn't disagree more with this thread title. This collection of songs has become a classic for me and I'm well chuffed that a band with a back catalogue such as these guys have, could pull that off in 2011. Yipeeeee.

[Reverend Bill Funderburk]

funkyratchet, on 06 April 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:

...and I'm a little surprised, but mostly just thrilled, to have a new REM album that still has potential to give me a whole lot more mileage before I've had enough of it.

I couldn't agree more with this.

[Saturn returned]

I have to say that for me it is sounding a bit like 'REM Lite" as one person said. The lyrics feel contrived, pushed, and trying too hard  to be relevant and personal. IHT is great but just does not reach the full height it attempts to reach. OMH is lovely but falls short; MB is very lovely but falls short; WIB is lovely but falls short; Discoverer rocks but again falls short....it really does feel lite and thats because the melodies and lyrics just don't resonate deep enough - REM lite. My gut on this is that ATS was so badly received that they went out and rocked hard with Accelerate which got them back some cudos....then they decided to go out and make the best thing they ever had made....aimed high.....but IMHO fell short. Its a pretty good album but for me (and by definition artistic taste is personal and therefore opinions are always 100% valid to the person forming them and them only) its gonna end up fairly low in their cannon......now this is REM....my favourite band so even that is gonna be a pretty fine album!

[dan]

funkyratchet, on 06 April 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

Alright...long-time listener, first-time caller here.  Every time the band releases an album, I usually just listen until I reach my saturation point.  That's it.  If my enjoyment warrants repeated listening for weeks rather than days, excellent.  If I feel like I've heard it enough after a couple of listens, fine - I move on to something else that I will enjoy more and come back to REM whenever I feel like it.  Knowing how greatly I have changed over the course of the past ten, twenty, or thirty years, I can only imagine how many changes three (four) other people who are members of the same band have undergone in that time.  Their habits, tendencies, opinions, preferences - most, if not all, of these things may be nothing like they were fifteen or twenty years ago.  It stands to reason that the music they make will not be same either.

What is really astounding to me is the amount of negativity here.  If you are no longer enjoying the music this band puts out, why spend time typing to convey that sentiment to others?  You could be listening to some other band that is currently making music that truly thrills you, involving yourself in the boards on their website,  and having discussions you enjoy about music you enjoy.  If you enjoy past REM albums, treasure them.  If you don't like the new album, no problem.  Try it again in a month or two.  Or wait for the next album and see what you think.  Or don't.  Continue to treasure the albums you love, and search for that band that will be the soundtrack to the next stage in your life.

I wouldn't say there is negativity in this thread - just as sense of disappointment I guess or a feeling that this album with better lyrics, more inspired choruses and a decent bridge or two could have been great.

It's great that a bunch of people really like it, but it is just as valid for people to discuss what they think the album lacks as well as what they love about it. Also, I'm sure most people from those who think it's the greatest thing ever to those who think it's a pile of shit are listening, discussing and getting involved in other music. As music fans, thats what we do right?

For the sake of balance I do think CIN is a solid effort. I love the last 2 minutes of IHT, all of Uberlin, Peaches contribution on AAAA, the fun of TSIY, the melancholy feel of Oh My Heart, the 'Cinderella Boy' part of Blue, the lyrics from Marlon Brando and all Mikes backing vocals.

Hmm - maybe I do really like it?  

[Fatherjohn]

revealing, on 06 April 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

Collapse Into Now is not bad, nor is it great. But it is better than its direct predecessor. It has a nice mix of songs and others' sense of it being somewhat of a look back over a successful career through new tracks is pretty much spot on. I like the first three tracks very much and feel that they are indeed among the strongest on the album; I think that all three of them hearken back to the past while at the same time sounding a bit progressive. I struggled with "Oh My Heart" at first, but now enjoy it (even though I like "Houston" better). "It Happened Today" is also a very strong track; one wouldn't think that devoting about 2/3 of the song to banshee-wailing of old would work, but oddly enough it does. The band comes to its first major blunder with "Every Day Is Yours To Win," however. The song itself is not poorly written, but the production is abysmal! Jackknife should be thoroughly berated for this. If the song was produced with clean guitar, xylophone, etc. and Michael actually sang most of it instead of talk-singing, it would totally work. But the distorted, off-key talk-singing and the instrumentation is just pathetic, not to mention the bridge that goes to nowhere. The band gets its mojo back with "Honey". I don't understand the haters of this track- it's a nice pop song with a wonderful chorus (and the "uhs" make it that much sweeter). "Walk It Back" is then a minor setback. It's not that the quality of the track is subpar- the singing is actually very good- but it's a tad repetitive and I feel that the instrumentation could have been better (either a steel guitar or more reverb). "AAAA" is also pretty average, on par with "I'm Gonna DJ," and I feel like it should be in an Austin Powers movie every time I hear it. "Brando" is good, oblique and mysterious, but I like "On The Fly" better. Then there's "Blue." For me, this track just kills the album. It is an obvious lift of "Country Feedback" (a track that really works), it's too messy with all of the instrumentation, Patti and Michael rushing through his stream of consciousness- there's just no space to breathe during most of it. It actually works for me WHEN there is space to breathe towards the end when Patti is singing and Michael is wording "blue,blue,blue..." Thank God for the coda of "Discoverer" to make it all whole- a wonderful decision on the band's part.

This is almost word for word how I feel about the album; I particularly agree with the notion that "Honey" is hugely underrated whilst "Blue" is hugely overrated.

[wagtail]

MurmursAdministrator, on 06 April 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

What's thrilling to me is that this record is appealing to people who are NOT on Murmurs, who lost track of the band.

why do you give a shit one way or the other?  

It kind of explains why you have been so ridiculously defensive about anything remotely negative, you seem to be rather invested in other people's opinions.

I got to thinking about that post-Cartesian identity stuff you discussed earlier.  It intrigued me because I remember a discussion about that theme with my visual theory lecturer back in the early 90's, and I pondered how different that discussion might have been if we'd really had an inkling of how the WWW was going to change lives and yeah, identity.  Anyhow, I just find it intriguing that you, as an innovator, would be more aware than most of the potential, but what I find hard to reconcile is why you seem not to trust that potential.  Or have you simply not considered how different the discussion here might have been, if you had not attempted to control it in the way you did?  Or maybe you don't think you tried to control it..?  I dunno.

I mean, you just seemed to get into a state of mind that noone here can relate to the band in the way you do, so then obviously anything anyone has to say is crap.  That's how it reads.

[wagtail]

oobel, on 06 April 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

I have to say that for me it is sounding a bit like 'REM Lite" as one person said. The lyrics feel contrived, pushed, and trying desperately to be "RELEVANT' and 'PERSONAL' and "WEIRD/UNDECIPHERABLE'.

Out of curiosity, which lyrics do you think are "trying desperately to be..WEIRD/UNDECIPHERABLE?"  I ask, because I think he's made an attempt on this record to be more succinct/direct and less ambiguous than he ever has.

[Fatherjohn]

funkyratchet, on 06 April 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

Alright...long-time listener, first-time caller here.  Every time the band releases an album, I usually just listen until I reach my saturation point.  That's it.  If my enjoyment warrants repeated listening for weeks rather than days, excellent.  If I feel like I've heard it enough after a couple of listens, fine - I move on to something else that I will enjoy more and come back to REM whenever I feel like it.  Knowing how greatly I have changed over the course of the past ten, twenty, or thirty years, I can only imagine how many changes three (four) other people who are members of the same band have undergone in that time.  Their habits, tendencies, opinions, preferences - most, if not all, of these things may be nothing like they were fifteen or twenty years ago.  It stands to reason that the music they make will not be same either.

What is really astounding to me is the amount of negativity here.  If you are no longer enjoying the music this band puts out, why spend time typing to convey that sentiment to others?  You could be listening to some other band that is currently making music that truly thrills you, involving yourself in the boards on their website,  and having discussions you enjoy about music you enjoy.  If you enjoy past REM albums, treasure them.  If you don't like the new album, no problem.  Try it again in a month or two.  Or wait for the next album and see what you think.  Or don't.  Continue to treasure the albums you love, and search for that band that will be the soundtrack to the next stage in your life.

I couldn't agree more with your first paragraph, but I could barely agree less with your second. I've never bought into the notion that if you don't like something, you should move along and keep quiet. Criticism is a vital part of appreciating any artform. Without it all we've got is cultural apathy and Snow Patrol.

[funkyratchet]

Fatherjohn, on 07 April 2011 - 04:30 AM, said:

I couldn't agree more with your first paragraph, but I could barely agree less with your second. I've never bought into the notion that if you don't like something, you should move along and keep quiet. Criticism is a vital part of appreciating any artform. Without it all we've got is cultural apathy and Snow Patrol.

I completely agree.  One of the things I love about reading these boards is the dissenting opinions.  So many other boards centered around an artist or band seem to be overwhelmingly full of praise, and any statements to the contrary are attacked and belittled.  Criticism is vital.  Complaining, however, is not.  There has been some great discourse on the new album in some of these threads, and I love reading both the postive and negative views.  But a certain amount of the posts seem to be simple complaints, and moreover, complaints that seem to come from a long-standing dissatisfaction with the band's more recent output.  If a fan hasn't enjoyed an REM album in quite some time, and the new album hasn't changed his mind, I just feel like he's doing himself a bit of a disservice by spending time conveying his unhappiness here instead of seeking out the band that fits his tastes in 2011.  But then again, some of those complaints have made for some of the most entertaining reading...

[Saturn returned]

wagtail, on 07 April 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, which lyrics do you think are "trying desperately to be..WEIRD/UNDECIPHERABLE?"  I ask, because I think he's made an attempt on this record to be more succinct/direct and less ambiguous than he ever has.

You are right - there is not that much of the weird and undecipherable here and I have edited my comment to reflect that. Its sad and its sweet and its true that they wanted this to be on a par with their best stuff and to that extent I feel they tried too hard. For comparison 'Up' was them just trying to show they could still run (as a 3-legged dog) and in my opinion 'Up' will prove to have many more classic moments than this album. That having being said, this is a lovely sounding piece of work. A lot of it shimmers and sparkles. There is nothing here though that I press 'play' and can hardly wait for the song to reach its zenith....its all middle excitement this record for me. I even think a lot of what was on ATS is better than this. I would love them to make an experimental record....forgetting about 'best' this and 'best ever since' that.

[CUYACOAT]

As someone who fell out of love with (new) REM long ago, I feel it would be worthwhile to give my impressions from that perspective. Indeed I have not bought CIN as I did not buy ATS or Accelerate. For me ATS is where the real problems started as it was the first time that I heard an album from REM that completely lacked spark, cohesion and direction but more importantly, contained a marked deterioration in quality songwriting. REM's reaction to the negativity that followed this album was to address that lack of cohesion and to try to 'rock' out. They succeeded on both counts with Accelerate but again it suffers through very average songwriting by their previous standards. The often ridiculous rave reviews for such an average album (which completely ignored the average standard of many of the songs) obviously led to REM believing what they were reading. They then proceeded that as they were 'on a roll' they would next time combine that cohesion and spark with an album that sounds as much like REM as they could possibly achieve. And herein lies the problem with CIN. Though it is a better album than both ATS and Accelerate, those attempts to sound like themselves which started with Accelerate and is blatant on CIN comes at a very high price if the songwriting is not up to, or close to the previous 'glory' days of many years ago. And if it isn't then you have final proof that REM are sadly finished. So what does it all say to me? After ATS I thought the writing was on the wall. After Accelerate I knew they had lost it. CIN just confirms my previous fears with absolute certainty. And yet I say that with the full knowledge and apparent contradiction that CIN is quite a good album (if listened in isolation and ignoring the history of this band). But I cannot ignore the past and that wonderful history. Blame REM not me. CIN is absolutely full of pretty good songs that try to sound like this or that from previous albums and ALL fail to recreate any of that previous majesty. Not only this but the most disturbing thing is the blatant overuse of the still wonderful Mills voice to compensate for the dramatic deterioration in Stipes higher registers just in order to recreate the sounds of old. So for someone like me if I want to listen to a great old REM track then I will listen to it in favour of a second rate attempt at a repeat. The final problem is that in trying to sound like REM there is no room or thought for any experimentation whatsoever. So if you're like me and the history of this band reduces this album to a level which it may not deserve on face value, I then have NOTHING else to look for or find within the music. So REM have made an album which is good on face value and good by any standards EXCEPT THEIR OWN. I still listen to some tracks and enjoy them but at the back, or often front of my mind I realise that this band will never be anything of what they once were as I am now listening to the proof. At least Radiohead cover their increasing mediocrity with the 'weird bells and whistles' experimentation philosophy which to some extent precludes such negative assessment. As for REM the game really is up. Well it is if you're a sad man like me who lives in the past. But this sad man will liten to something like 'Cuyahoga' instead of 'Uberlin' not because one of them is good and one is bad but because one of them is far far far better than the other. I really like Uberlin but with all of CIN I am reminded of the magical 'Tourfim' when Stipe introduces 'I remember California' and says about the Pacific Coast what could easily be said about REM's journey to their past...."the closer... I get, the further... away.... I feel".....

[1two3four5]

personally, i just enjoy the fact that the album is melodious, diverse, rich in textures, sincere, FUN. i'm not thinking about it being innovative or not and i try not to compare it to previous albums/songs. for me it stands on its own as an album that has a heart. i have grown to appreciate every track on its own (some more than others, and i used to dislike a few of them quite a lot), but i think that the sequence of walk it back / alligator_aviator_autopilot_antimatter / that someone is you / me, marlon brando, marlon brando and i / blue / discoverer (reprise) is fantastic. for me, this is their best album since reveal and the most accessible and friendliest since new adventures in hi-fi.

[Saturn returned]

CUYACOAT, on 07 April 2011 - 07:30 AM, said:

As someone who fell out of love with (new) REM long ago, I feel it would be worthwhile to give my impressions from that perspective. Indeed I have not bought CIN as I did not buy ATS or Accelerate. For me ATS is where the real problems started as it was the first time that I heard an album from REM that completely lacked spark, cohesion and direction but more importantly, contained a marked deterioration in quality songwriting. REM's reaction to the negativity that followed this album was to address that lack of cohesion and to try to 'rock' out. They succeeded on both counts with Accelerate but again it suffers through very average songwriting by their previous standards. The often ridiculous rave reviews for such an average album (which completely ignored the average standard of many of the songs) obviously led to REM believing what they were reading. They then proceeded that as they were 'on a roll' they would next time combine that cohesion and spark with an album that sounds as much like REM as they could possibly achieve. And herein lies the problem with CIN. Though it is a better album than both ATS and Accelerate, those attempts to sound like themselves which started with Accelerate and is blatant on CIN comes at a very high price if the songwriting is not up to, or close to the previous 'glory' days of many years ago. And if it isn't then you have final proof that REM are sadly finished. So what does it all say to me? After ATS I thought the writing was on the wall. After Accelerate I knew they had lost it. CIN just confirms my previous fears with absolute certainty. And yet I say that with the full knowledge and apparent contradiction that CIN is quite a good album (if listened in isolation and ignoring the history of this band). But I cannot ignore the past and that wonderful history. Blame REM not me. CIN is absolutely full of pretty good songs that try to sound like this or that from previous albums and ALL fail to recreate any of that previous majesty. Not only this but the most disturbing thing is the blatant overuse of the still wonderful Mills voice to compensate for the dramatic deterioration in Stipes higher registers just in order to recreate the sounds of old. So for someone like me if I want to listen to a great old REM track then I will listen to it in favour of a second rate attempt at a repeat. The final problem is that in trying to sound like REM there is no room or thought for any experimentation whatsoever. So if you're like me and the history of this band reduces this album to a level which it may not deserve on face value, I then have NOTHING else to look for or find within the music. So REM have made an album which is good on face value and good by any standards EXCEPT THEIR OWN. I still listen to some tracks and enjoy them but at the back, or often front of my mind I realise that this band will never be anything of what they once were as I am now listening to the proof. At least Radiohead cover their increasing mediocrity with the 'weird bells and whistles' experimentation philosophy which to some extent precludes such negative assessment. As for REM the game really is up. Well it is if you're a sad man like me who lives in the past. But this sad man will liten to something like 'Cuyahoga' instead of 'Uberlin' not because one of them is good and one is bad but because one of them is far far far better than the other. I really like Uberlin but with all of CIN I am reminded of the magical 'Tourfim' when Stipe introduces 'I remember California' and says about the Pacific Coast what could easily be said about REM's journey to their past...."the closer... I get, the further... away.... I feel".....

We are all sentimentalists, REM included. Maybe what they need is a few years in the wilderness. I think your comments are very very sad but valid. Don't count them out though. Once they let go they might actually surprise us. This group has genius yet. ....I felt that 'Living Wells the Best Revenge' was the hardest rocking song they have every put out and I do not say that lightly. It sends me immediately into space, as does Supernatural Superserious. By the way, I have to disagree with your Radiohead statement. I think they are still on top of their game. King of Limbs is good stuff.

[funkyratchet]

1two3four5, on 07 April 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

personally, i just enjoy the fact that the album is melodious, diverse, rich in textures, sincere, FUN. i'm not thinking about it being innovative or not and i try not to compare it to previous albums/songs. for me it stands on its own as an album that has a heart. i have grown to appreciate every track on its own (some more than others, and i used to dislike a few of them quite a lot), but i think that the sequence of walk it back / alligator_aviator_autopilot_antimatter / that someone is you / me, marlon brando, marlon brando and i / blue / discoverer (reprise) is fantastic. for me, this is their best album since reveal and the most accessible and friendliest since new adventures in hi-fi.

That's almost exactly how I feel.  This album is most definitely not Automatic/Murmur/whatever, nor do I expect it to be.  Rather than being disappointed that this album has not changed, and is likely not going to change, my life dramatically, I'm just pleased to have some new music from them that sounds like REM that I am enjoying.  And quite honestly, I can't imagine that my current criteria to consider an album "life-changing" would even be remotely the same as they were fifteen or twenty years ago.  For that matter, if I heard Automatic or Hi-Fi for the first time today (both were REM albums that played a big part in my life upon their release), would they even affect me at this stage in my life like they did at those previous stages?

I honestly feel like a large portion of Collapse can hold up pretty well next to either of those albums I mentioned.  Are there some new songs that can be argued as being "less good" or subpar to their best?  Sure.  But there always have been.  "Sidewinder"?  "Pop Song 89"?  I'm not debating the quality of either song, but I wouldn't necessarily call the lyrics "deep" or the music "innovative."

But if you aren't feeling the new album, I can understand that as well.  A perceived decline in the quality of REM's music is, of course, a subjective arguement, and one that can be argued on either side convincingly.  But you should also be willing to take into account the fact that you may simply be a different person today than you were when your pivotal REM album(s) came out way back when.