148 replies to this topic

[OneArpeggioPete]

hmmmmmm... as much as i'd like to agree with you, froggie, i still don't think people here are taking issues with stiperule's pro-life stance - after all she is not the only one in this thread standing up for it - but with the irrational way she's arguing it. there is just justification for reacting to homicide with the words "but how many babies did he kill". just my two cents...

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

As I said, if you want to start a thread on abortion issues, fine. Otherwise, I think I've said all I intend to, seeing as this thread is being derailed through nobody's fault in particular.

(As a sideline, I've intended no offense to anyone. My views are mine and are pretty unshakeable. My way of putting things isn't always great but then I'm not a master with the English language & my words often run away with me. I stand by what I've said so far: the murder was wrong, there is no doubt about that; but I cannot show too much sympathy to someone who (in my opinion only, remember) has already taken 100's if not 1000's of babies' lives in the past.)

[Red Frog]

OneArpeggioPete said:

hmmmmmm... as much as i'd like to agree with you, froggie, i still don't think people here are taking issues with stiperule's pro-life stance - after all she is not the only one in this thread standing up for it - but with the irrational way she's arguing it. there is just justification for reacting to homicide with the words "but how many babies did he kill". just my two cents...

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

I was just reacting to the fact that it seemed most of the arguments were coming out of the way she was making her point, not her actual point.  Not the best, but not something that can just be hammered away at.  

Maybe that's why I only post cheap jokes.

[Tuppenny]

stiperules!ok said:

No, I have plenty more arguments, but most of you are too close minded. You are pro-choice (another awful term -it's as bad as pro-life); to me the 'choice' is made when a woman has unprotected sex. And I'm not talking here about rape/incest etc, so don't start on about that. The fact is, this is not the thread for such a debate. If you want to debate it, by all means start up a new one - I'll respond.

What about when contraception is used and fails? Whose choice is it then?

stiperules!ok said:

I just wonder whether anyone out there has ever thought of the babies ripped apart by abortion?

Please consider the language you are using: if someone is reading this who has been through an abortion, how do you think they might feel by the term 'ripped apart'? You have expressed sympathy with women who have to make the difficult decision, but the inflammatory language shows a total lack of thought.

[Martine]

stiperules!ok said:

I'm not talking about decisions of life or death here, I'm talking about abortion clinics where that's all they do, and they do it for money.

I would just like to say that I seriously doubt ANYONE would perform these procedures for money. It is not a pleasant operation to perform, and those who do it (like me, when needed) do it out of the belief that they are helping someone.
I don´t even know how much they cost. A lot of abortion clinics that I know (I work in a hospital) are non profit.

[bizaleth]

Red Frog said:

Guys,

I feel like at a certain point (right near the beginning) this thread became about ganging up on stiperules as a stand in for anyone who is pro-life and, to a lesser extent, for killing this guy.  I don't think that's the case, and it seems like a lot of misdirected anger and frustration about this case in particular, but also the enduring argument over abortion is working its way into the cracks of each statement made.  

We don't have to agree with every word of what she (?) is saying, but I don't think lambasting her (again, ?) for saying it isn't helping.  We all know you're pissed about this, but we're not having an argument that's useful.  No one on this board is ok with this doctor being murdered.  I don't think that was ever said (or is a view that would ever be publicly admitted by a sane person).  Abortion discussions are contentious enough without trying to also accuse someone pro-life of supporting radical murder, so I don't know that it's terribly helpful.

I'm gonna have to agree with the Frog here. I try to stay out of abortion discussions because I have very strong opinions on this (they have been well-documented here), but I also know that opinions are rarely changed on this issue. these discussions just turn into shouting matches.

[stiperules!ok]

Martine said:

I would just like to say that I seriously doubt ANYONE would perform these procedures for money.

I thought I'd finished with this thread, & this is definitely my last post on it. I don't know what it's like in USA or elsewhere, but in the UK there are abortion clinics where women are sent through virtually on a conveyor belt to get as many through in a day as poss. I spoke once to a nurse (male) who left a clinic for precisely this reason. Not, you'll notice, because he was against abortion, but he hated the pure greed of the more they dealt with the more money they made. I know they're not all like that, but there are a fair few that are.

I'm finished.

[bizaleth]

I think before anyone makes snap judgments about women who are put in a position where they have to make a decision about terminating a pregnancy, you should think of this woman.

The world has lost a professional and caring doctor.

[Kelly A]

Considering he'd been bombed and shot twice before, I'd be surprised if George Tiller was in it for the easy money. In fact, despite me not being a big fan of abortion, I think he's somewhat of a hero for trying to help women despite the domestic terrorism threats against him.

[pebbles]

I respect the pro-life point of view, but I have to say I find some of the pro-life rhetoric and language use very inflammatory.  I think the way that the pro-life groups and people sometimes talk about abortions, etc makes it that much more likely that their words will be incindiary and contribute to the murder or assault of medical professionals.

Phrases like "baby-killer", "ripped apart", "abortion industry" (which is what? Medical practice?).

Talking like this does not make anyone more or less likely to agree with your views.  But it does help ensure that some mentally ill person who already agrees with the pro-life POV will go off the deep end and feel justified in murdering another human being (a doctor or other health care provider).

[OneArpeggioPete]

something tells me not all these murders are committed by mentall ill people...

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[pebbles]

stiperules!ok said:

I thought I'd finished with this thread, & this is definitely my last post on it. I don't know what it's like in USA or elsewhere, but in the UK there are abortion clinics where women are sent through virtually on a conveyor belt to get as many through in a day as poss. I spoke once to a nurse (male) who left a clinic for precisely this reason. Not, you'll notice, because he was against abortion, but he hated the pure greed of the more they dealt with the more money they made. I know they're not all like that, but there are a fair few that are.

I'm finished.

You know, that happens, and a lot worse in many other fields of medicine also.  Plastic surgery is notorious for it. I know it happens a fair bit in the UK where people at family doctors are told "one issue per visit, please". Ever wonder why? Do the doctors get paid per visit or per health issue? Ever hear stories of people at the doctor feeling like they were being rushed?  So the doctor could squeeze in more patients in a day?  

Clinics of any and all types have the same "conveyor belt" type of functioning as you describe.  It's not about the procedure being done, it's about how the clinic chooses to run, become efficient, etc.  Some clinics are better than others at maintaining humanity and dignity in the midst of all this.  Unfortunate, but true.  You should see how fast we shuttle patients around in acute care sometimes!!

[pebbles]

OneArpeggioPete said:

something tells me not all these murders are committed by mentall ill people...

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

Very true.  I don't think James Kopp, who shot a doctor in my city as well as several in the US was mentally ill.  But the family of the man who shot this Dr Tiller say that he has struggled with mental illness, so that's why I raised it.

I guess even people who aren't "mentally ill" could get caught up in the rhetoric and think it's justified to commit murder.

[stiperules!ok]

pebbles said:

You know, that happens, and a lot worse in many other fields of medicine also.  Plastic surgery is notorious for it. I know it happens a fair bit in the UK where people at family doctors are told "one issue per visit, please". Ever wonder why? Do the doctors get paid per visit or per health issue? Ever hear stories of people at the doctor feeling like they were being rushed?  So the doctor could squeeze in more patients in a day?  

Clinics of any and all types have the same "conveyor belt" type of functioning as you describe.  It's not about the procedure being done, it's about how the clinic chooses to run, become efficient, etc.  Some clinics are better than others at maintaining humanity and dignity in the midst of all this.  Unfortunate, but true.  You should see how fast we shuttle patients around in acute care sometimes!!

Oh, God, I'm back again! What you say is only too true. Awful for those patients who really need someone to listen carefully to them for underlying problems.

pebbles said:

Very true.  I don't think James Kopp, who shot a doctor in my city as well as several in the US was mentally ill.  But the family of the man who shot this Dr Tiller say that he has struggled with mental illness, so that's why I raised it.

I guess even people who aren't "mentally ill" could get caught up in the rhetoric and think it's justified to commit murder.

I think murderers of this sort are not mentally ill per se. They are fanatics, like terrorists though they wouldn't see it that way.

[eva83]

bizaleth said:

I think before anyone makes snap judgments about women who are put in a position where they have to make a decision about terminating a pregnancy, you should think of this woman.

The world has lost a professional and caring doctor.

Having read this letter I'm not sure what are we talking about anymore. What was dr Tiller doing exactly?
As far as the stories I've heard go, women I've met say, these kinds of 'abortions' (like the one from the letter) happen quite often here (Poland). A woman is accepted to the hospital and the doctors tell her, 'your baby is probably dead, it only lives because it is connected to you', or, 'your baby is so deformed that there is almost no chance it survives outside the womb'. And they give her a choice, either to agree to C-section or to wait for the labour.
Maybe it's not a perfect expression but it seems it is a kind of 'standard procedure' here. And nobody shoots them, nobody calls the doctors 'heroes' or walking saints, nobody writes the letters to the president it just... happens.
I still claim that a fetus is a baby and whatever you do to it you do it to a human being, but I don't know what I would do in such situation, it would probably depend on how much I trust my doctors.
In Poland abortion is legal if a pregnancy causes danger to woman's health/life or it is a result of rape or incest.
And of course, it is still a very controversial issue and I'm glad it is because in this case as long as we talk about it or even argue about it, it means we think about it, we don't make hasty choices and don't easily decide what is right or wrong.

[stiperules!ok]

That's a very intelligent way of thinking about it.

Oh, and I've only just now read the tags - don't you guys have anything better to do? Ill-thought &, to some, offensive.

[Tronyé]

DrinkTheElixer said:

I'm not sure what your point is, it's not really relevant  - is it?

I agree, the "mothers" are murderers just as much as he is.  Why are doctors the only ones targeted?

[eva83]

Derek said:

I agree, the "mothers" are murderers just as much as he is.  Why are doctors the only ones targeted?

I’m confused by this, both Derek’s post and Drink THe Elixir’s (presumably deleted) were you referring to my post? My point was what exactly was dr Tiller doing, why was he shot, what do we call ‘abortion’. when the baby is dead in the womb, is it an abortion?

[Tronyé]

eva83 said:

I’m confused by this, both Derek’s post and Drink THe Elixir’s (presumably deleted) were you referring to my post? My point was what exactly was dr Tiller doing, why was he shot, what do we call ‘abortion’. when the baby is dead in the womb, is it an abortion?

Do you know if The Sims 3 will include the option to abort future Sims?  I have never played The Sims 2.

[eva83]

Derek said:

Do you know if The Sims 3 will include the option to abort future Sims?  I never played The Sims 2.

And your point is?