148 replies to this topic

[MeanCat]

stiperules!ok said:

yet none of you will stand up for those babies.

You call it "standing up for those babies", I call it not imposing one's opinion on other people. When someone says life starts with conception and they'd never have an abortion, fine, I won't try to persuade them otherwise, just like I'd want self-proclaimed "pro-lifers" (what a dumb name) to stay the fuck out of other people's lives. Having an abortion or not is already a very heavy decision, and a very personal one, not some random stranger's.

Edited by MeanCat, 02 June 2009 - 01:22 AM.

[stiperules!ok]

MeanCat said:

You call it "standing up for those babies", I call it not imposing one's opinion on other people. When someone says life starts with conception and they'd never have an abortion, fine, I won't try to persuade them otherwise, just like I'd want self-proclaimed "pro-lifers" (what a dumb name) to stay the fuck out of other people's lives. Having an abortion or not is already a very heavy decision, and a very personal one, not some random stranger's.

Have I tried to persuade you otherwise? No. I do not get 'the fuck' in to other people's lives. Abortion is a very heavy decision & I haven't ever condemned a woman for making that decision, neither would I. However, you cannot dismiss the ideals of pro-lifers (I agree it's a ridiculous term) as easily as that. They have their opinions & proofs which are just as valid as everyone else's.

Just for interest, & veering rather off-topic, my sister had an abortion 30 years ago (she doesn't read this forum). She never got over it (there was no counselling then) & she always wonders what that child would have been. She remembers it's would-have-been birthday, & regrets the decision very much. The surgeon told her that this was one of the best forms of contraception(No, I know they don't say that now)! This is not an isolated case.

[OneArpeggioPete]

ok, that must suck something mighty, my heart goes out to your sister... :( still it's not a a great idea to let a traumatic experience like that inform your attitude towards an entire profession.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

OneArpeggioPete said:

ok, that must suck something mighty, my heart goes out to your sister... :( still it's not a a great idea to let a traumatic experience like that inform your attitude towards an entire profession.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

That isn't what informed my attitudes/opinions. My sister's problems were when I was very young & didn't understand what was happening. It was only in recent years that I found out. My opinions have been formed over many years & after much heart & soul searching. I cannot believe that life only begins at the moment of birth. Just my opinion & as I said before, I won't try to convert anyone to those opinions or get 'the fuck' in to any one else's life. I just can't find it in me to feel all that sorry for this guy (although, as I've said, I do not condone the killing - it was barbaric). His family/friends and witnesses to the act, yes I feel awfully sorry for them. They'll be traumatised for a long time, possibly even for life.

[stiperules!ok]

OneArpeggioPete said:

still it's not a a great idea to let a traumatic experience like that inform your attitude towards an entire profession.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

Whoa, just saw the last bit - I have no problem in general with the medical profession! Just those who only practice abortions purely for the huge amounts of $ it makes them!

[OneArpeggioPete]

stiperules!ok said:

Whoa, just saw the last bit - I have no problem in general with the medical profession! Just those who only practice abortions purely for the huge amounts of $ it makes them!

so nobody, and in particular this guy, has ever practiced abortions to help the women or save their lives? they're all just in it for the money?

as for feeling sorry for the man - no, there's no need to, because there's just no need to feel sorry for the dead, for them things are done and dusted. but i do feel sorry for his loved ones, and i do feel sorry for the women who will now not get the help they need because he's no longer there and because such incidents take the courage out of others to perform such controversial procedures. and even if i didn't - you're still pretty much condoning his murder here, sure as hell you must notice that?

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

OneArpeggioPete said:

so nobody, and in particular this guy, has ever practiced abortions to help the women or save their lives? they're all just in it for the money?

you're still pretty much condoning his murder here, sure as hell you must notice that?

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

For the first part - I certainly never said that. I know they're not all in it for the money, that's why I stipulated the ones who only ever do it for the money.

For the second part, whilst I have no real sympathy for the man, I say yet again that I do not, nor ever will, condone his murder. You are putting words into my mouth that were never there - throughout this thread, I have continually condemned the murder.

[MeanCat]

stiperules!ok said:

Have I tried to persuade you otherwise? No. I do not get 'the fuck' in to other people's lives.

Then why are you complaining about people "not standing up for those babies"? I take it by "those" babies you mean "other people's babies", am I correct?

[OneArpeggioPete]

stiperules!ok said:

For the first part - I certainly never said that. I know they're not all in it for the money, that's why I stipulated the ones who only ever do it for the money.

For the second part, whilst I have no real sympathy for the man, I say yet again that I do not, nor ever will, condone his murder. You are putting words into my mouth that were never there - throughout this thread, I have continually condemned the murder.

you sure as hell implied that these guys, and tiller in particular, are only in it for the money. actually, i just read up on his biophraphy on wikipedia, and to me he sounds like one of the world's good guys, who went into that line of work for good, ethical reasons.

as for the murder, some of your words say you're condemning it, your tone says the exact opposite.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

eva83 said:

So it's taking another person's life, very small one and inside a woman's womb in this case. In this regard it is simple for me.

But it's never simple when it comes to life threatening situations or diseases, then someone, a doctor, a woman herself may decide that there is a necessity to kill the baby in order to save woman's life. But killing is killing.

It's like shooting someone in self-defence

You put it so much better than me!

MeanCat said:

Then why are you complaining about people "not standing up for those babies"? I take it by "those" babies you mean "other people's babies", am I correct?

By 'those babies' I mean the aborted ones - my sister's & every other woman's.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time: I do not condone this murder. I just wonder whether anyone out there has ever thought of the babies ripped apart by abortion? Have you thought about how other people feel when confronted by someone who does abortions? I'm not talking about decisions of life or death here, I'm talking about abortion clinics where that's all they do, and they do it for money.

[MeanCat]

stiperules!ok said:

By 'those babies' I mean the aborted ones - my sister's & every other woman's.

So on the one hand you agree that pro-lifers should not get involved with other women's affairs, but at the same time you think people should "stand up for" other people's babies? Then what do you mean by "standing up for those babies" anyway? This doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever.

[stiperules!ok]

MeanCat said:

So on the one hand you agree that pro-lifers should not get involved with other women's affairs, but at the same time you think people should "stand up for" other people's babies? Then what do you mean by "standing up for those babies" anyway? This doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever.

I think that you are deliberately misunderstanding me, but as you say, whatever..............

[OneArpeggioPete]

tiller went into abortions because a woman in his neighbourhood died after a coat hanger abortion. he was going to be a dermatologist before that. doesn't sound like he was in it for the money to me. he had been targeted and injured by anti-abortion terrorists before, so you think if he had been in it for the life style he'd have stopped it right then, no? please don't judge people the way you do...

and if you wanna talk family, my grandmother's life was saved by an abortion her gp performed on her illegally in the late 1940's. so all gp's should perform illegal abortions? see? it did something good in my family, it did something bad in yours. no reason to build your entire worldview on it. i wouldn't do it, but that's my and only my own decision. what other women and other doctors do is entirely up to them and doesn't make them better or worse people.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

OneArpeggioPete said:

and if you wanna talk family, my grandmother's life was saved by an abortion her gp performed on her illegally in the late 1940's. so all gp's should perform illegal abortions? see? it did something good in my family, it did something bad in yours. no reason to build your entire worldview on it. i wouldn't do it, but that's my and only my own decision. what other women and other doctors do is entirely up to them and doesn't make them better or worse people.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

But I've already said that my opinions were not formed solely because of my sister's past. And if you read my posts properly you will see that I have never condemned any woman for making what must have been a terribly hard decision.

[OneArpeggioPete]

you can rest assured that i've read all your posts very thoroughly, and to me they all say the same thing - namely that you're trying to justify an unjustifiable statement by rationalising the after-effects of a traumatic event in your life. your posts in this thread say a lot more between the lines than in them.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

[stiperules!ok]

OneArpeggioPete said:

you can rest assured that i've read all your posts very thoroughly, and to me they all say the same thing - namely that you're trying to justify an unjustifiable statement by rationalising the after-effects of a traumatic event in your life. your posts in this thread say a lot more between the lines than in them.

:-)

oneArpeggiopete:cool:

Sorry, rubbish. I know my own mind.

[stiperules!ok]

No, I have plenty more arguments, but most of you are too close minded. You are pro-choice (another awful term -it's as bad as pro-life); to me the 'choice' is made when a woman has unprotected sex. And I'm not talking here about rape/incest etc, so don't start on about that. The fact is, this is not the thread for such a debate. If you want to debate it, by all means start up a new one - I'll respond.

[stiperules!ok]

Wow, I've just answered a post that seems to have disappeared! spooky.

[MeanCat]

I deleted my post because obviously there is no more point in arguing. However, since you insist on continiung with this, I said "Sounds to me like you're running out of arguments and thus saying I just don't understand you (same with what you said to Astrid)."

Calling me (and others) "too close minded" to argue with only strengthens my impression.

[Red Frog]

Guys,

I feel like at a certain point (right near the beginning) this thread became about ganging up on stiperules as a stand in for anyone who is pro-life and, to a lesser extent, for killing this guy.  I don't think that's the case, and it seems like a lot of misdirected anger and frustration about this case in particular, but also the enduring argument over abortion is working its way into the cracks of each statement made.  

We don't have to agree with every word of what she (?) is saying, but I don't think lambasting her (again, ?) for saying it isn't helping.  We all know you're pissed about this, but we're not having an argument that's useful.  No one on this board is ok with this doctor being murdered.  I don't think that was ever said (or is a view that would ever be publicly admitted by a sane person).  Abortion discussions are contentious enough without trying to also accuse someone pro-life of supporting radical murder, so I don't know that it's terribly helpful.