177 replies to this topic

[isilida 32]

when i first saw this thread i thought it was about that old poster gwb. what i got instead was pure murmurs comedy gold. what was the original thread even about?

[Sam]

I'm a straight, white, non IV drug user in America.  I don't worry about catching AIDS.

Haven't you heard?  Aids in America is now a black disease.

[stiperules!ok]

Red Frog said:

Ok, so I was just watching this story from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/v...ng.abortion.cnn about how the current administration is trying to get the Department of Health and Human Services to redefine abortion to include anything that impedes conception, so classifying the pill and IUDs as abortion.  They're not making it illegal, but trying to completely ignore and reclassify science is just the first step toward undermining the rights of women (and, of course, the actual law).

Holy crap.

What you're all missing is that the pill, IUD's etc are not banned by the Catholic Church (I don't know about the government's thinking) just because they impede conception - they can also cause abortion of a fertilised ovum. That, my friends is abortion, and whether you are pro or anti abortion, it is a fact.

[purple scapolite]

stiperules!ok said:

What you're all missing is that the pill, IUD's etc are not banned by the Catholic Church (I don't know about the government's thinking) just because they impede conception - they can also cause abortion of a fertilised ovum.

The Catholic Church bans condoms because they impede conception. Flat out. The Catholic Church bans all forms of birth control, as far as i know, short of withdrawal and natural planning, and even then I'm not sure they approve of those. The Catholic Church would ban these not because of the abortion question at all, i'm pretty sure- it's because they impede conception.

[Tronyé]

Sam said:

I'm a straight, white, non IV drug user in America.  I don't worry about catching AIDS.

Haven't you heard?  Aids in America is now a black disease.

IS NOW?

[Tronyé]

isilida 32 said:

when i first saw this thread i thought it was about that old poster gwb. what i got instead was pure murmurs comedy gold. what was the original thread even about?

Comedy gold?  People getting knocked up isn't funny.  It ruins lives.  Maybe you've seen Juno and think we live in a picture perfect world, but that only happens .02% of the time.

[Red Frog]

shawna said:

The Catholic Church bans all forms of birth control, as far as i know, short of withdrawal and natural planning, and even then I'm not sure they approve of those. .

I think condoms and withdrawl fall under the same umbrella of illegal onanism.  I think the rhythm method is pretty much the prescribed attack plan.

[Sam]

Derek said:

Comedy gold?  People getting knocked up isn't funny.  It ruins lives.  Maybe you've seen Juno and think we live in a picture perfect world, but that only happens .02% of the time.

"You're Eggo is Preggo."  Michael Cera sucks. He's a like a wimpier Woody Allen who hasn't sprouted pubes yet.

[Red Frog]

Sam said:

"You're Eggo is Preggo."

Of course it's not funny.  Grammar that poor is only funny when it's an urban comedy.

And Michael Cera is great.  

[Tronyé]

Red Frog said:

Of course it's not funny.  Grammar that poor is only funny when it's an urban comedy.

And Michael Cera is great.  

You would think he's great, considering you look like his preteen doppelgänger.

[Red Frog]

Derek said:

You would think he's great, considering you look like his preteen doppelgänger.

I am Michael Cera.

[Avalon]

So, ..................................does swallowing count? :confused:

[stiperules!ok]

shawna said:

The Catholic Church bans condoms because they impede conception. Flat out. The Catholic Church bans all forms of birth control, as far as i know, short of withdrawal and natural planning, and even then I'm not sure they approve of those. The Catholic Church would ban these not because of the abortion question at all, i'm pretty sure- it's because they impede conception.

Look, I'm not saying anything about other forms of contraception - just the pill & IUD's. They DO cause abortion.

Personally, I'm ok with condoms (maybe I'm not such a good catholic, but hey, who is?), they prevent more than pregnancy. But the pill's just not worth the health problems & possible abortion for me (or the church).

[purple scapolite]

stiperules!ok said:

Look, I'm not saying anything about other forms of contraception - just the pill & IUD's. They DO cause abortion.

Ok. Earlier you said the Catholic Church is against the pill and IUDs, because they think they cause abortion. My point is  whether or not it is or not considered abortion from the Church-because the Church would ban them anyway. Because they ban all methods of contraception that aren't the rhythym method. Wouldn't matter if it kept an unfertilized egg from meeting sperm  in the uterus- it's banned. That's what i'm saying.

....There are many differences in thought as to when actual life begins for each, i believe. And even more so, for what may, or may not be, potential conception.

[stiperules!ok]

shawna said:

Ok. Earlier you said the Catholic Church is against the pill and IUDs, because they think they cause abortion. My point is  whether or not it is or not considered abortion from the Church-because the Church would ban them anyway. Because they ban all methods of contraception that aren't the rhythym method. Wouldn't matter if it kept an unfertilized egg from meeting sperm  in the uterus- it's banned. That's what i'm saying.

....There are many differences in thought as to when actual life begins for each, i believe. And even more so, for what may, or may not be, potential conception.

Oh, dear, now we're into the abortion debate! I won't get into that because it's too emotive. I'm not debating whether they'd be banned whether or not they prevent conception - the fact is they can cause abortion. So, the original question of the government saying that the pill etc causes abortion is correct. Personally, from a religious point of view, I feel that condoms should be allowed - as I said before, they prevent more than pregnancy. The growing instance of STD's, especially in the young, is extremely worrying.

[purple scapolite]

stiperules!ok said:

Oh, dear, now we're into the abortion debate! I won't get into that because it's too emotive. I'm not debating whether they'd be banned whether or not they prevent conception - the fact is they can cause abortion. So, the original question of the government saying that the pill etc causes abortion is correct. Personally, from a religious point of view, I feel that condoms should be allowed - as I said before, they prevent more than pregnancy. The growing instance of STD's, especially in the young, is extremely worrying.

Ok, trying to stay out of the Abortion debate- though kind of hard when this is exactly what this is about..... what MAY cause abortion (to you) and what DOES cause it, are two different things. If calling a just-fertilized egg "life" to start with- and there is the question for many people if it is that (which many do not believe it is)- i must take issue with the idea that one time you say that these CAN cause an abortion, and the next you say that the government is correct in saying they DO cause one. To me there is a difference. An IUD or pill that prevents an egg from meeting sperm does NOT cause abortion- even if we were to go by your idea of when life starts.

My point is that while perhaps to you these contraceptives cause abortion- for many people they don't. Point one, to some people it may be abortion to hinder a fertilized egg, but i'm not sure one can say with certainty that these contraceptives absolutely do this-and point two, the idea that life is exactly when an egg is fertilized is not a position everyone shares. Many people here do not hold this position as fact- and they do not believe the government has any proof, nor right, to try to redefine contraception here as abortion because some people believe it.

[stiperules!ok]

shawna said:

Ok, trying to stay out of the Abortion debate- though kind of hard when this is exactly what this is about..... what MAY cause abortion (to you) and what DOES cause it, are two different things. If calling a just-fertilized egg "life" to start with- and there is the question for many people if it is that (which many do not believe it is)- i must take issue with the idea that one time you say that these CAN cause an abortion, and the next you say that the government is correct in saying they DO cause one. To me there is a difference. An IUD or pill that prevents an egg from meeting sperm does NOT cause abortion- even if we were to go by your idea of when life starts.

My point is that while perhaps to you these contraceptives cause abortion- for many people they don't. Point one, to some people it may be abortion to hinder a fertilized egg, but i'm not sure one can say with certainty that these contraceptives absolutely do this-and point two, the idea that life is exactly when an egg is fertilized is not a position everyone shares. Many people here do not hold this position as fact- and they do not believe the government has any proof, nor right, to try to redefine contraception here as abortion because some people believe it.

No, no, no! I don't care when you say life starts - that's a different argument. When you are on the pill or use an IUD, the sperm are not just prevented from reaching the egg. If the sperm reaches the egg & fertilizes it, the pill or IUD gets rid of it. That's abortion, whether you like to admit it or not.

[purple scapolite]

stiperules!ok said:

No, no, no! I don't care when you say life starts - that's a different argument. When you are on the pill or use an IUD, the sperm are not just prevented from reaching the egg. If the sperm reaches the egg & fertilizes it, the pill or IUD gets rid of it. That's abortion, whether you like to admit it or not.

*IF* it does reach the egg and is fertilized, that may be abortion, again, to you. Actually from what i've read, the Pill primarily and mostly prevents ovulation. "The first 21 pills have a combination of synthetic estrogen and progesterone hormones. The Pill stops ovulation, preventing the ovaries from releasing eggs. The Pill also thickens cervical mucus, making it harder for sperm to enter the uterus. The hormones in the Pill prevent fertilization." http://www.fwhc.org/...rol/thepill.htm That, if i'm correct, has nothing to do with the fertilized egg. Some in the pro-life group say it can stop a fertilized egg, but the information i've read says that's debatable, and the chances of that occuring are very small. Same with IUDs. Mainly they work, from what i've read, as inhibitors, separately, for both sperm and egg. Now if you want to call that small chance too close to abortion- for you- that's fine. But again you have to realize that a) a lot of people don't call the small chance of that happening abortion, and b) a lot of people don't share the idea that a just-fertilized egg is living. And given these two statements, they absolutely do not agree that the government has any right, or proof, to change classifications of birth control into abortion.

[stipeeyes]

stiperules!ok said:

No, no, no! I don't care when you say life starts - that's a different argument. When you are on the pill or use an IUD, the sperm are not just prevented from reaching the egg. If the sperm reaches the egg & fertilizes it, the pill or IUD gets rid of it. That's abortion, whether you like to admit it or not.

OH it is not.  Perhaps some refreshing on sexual education would do you well.
A birth control pill stops the egg from being fertilized.  Like putting a shield around the egg.  A fetus is never formed.  In abortion the fetus is already formed and visible.  That only takes two weeks into a pregnancy.   But as a woman I'm not going to let some drunken idiot(Bush) take away my rights that other women before us have thought so hard to have.

Well 5 more months and Bush has to move out of the white house.

[baschiera]

Red Frog said:

There's a big difference between a church, which has no legal power, saying this and the Department of Heath and Human Services.  I don't agree with the Catholic Church's stance, but at least I have the choice not to be Catholic.

I do agree with you.