36 replies to this topic

[baschiera]

Kat-Kit said:

My boyfriend is in the Royal Army Medical Corps of the British Army and is currently 1 month into a 6 month tour in Basra.

In our conversations, he assures me that most Iraqi's want the coalition forces there to help bring peace to their country and it is only a small minority who are against them being there. However he only has a view from the area we are in. Obviously I want him home for purely selfish reasons, but I do understand the importance of the work that is being done there.  The UK are starting the withdrawl and are hoping to handover Basra to Iraqi control in the spring, but we will still be there in a support role.  

Yes, really a great work...

[Kat-Kit]

Do you actually know what they are doing in Iraq? They're training their police force and army to be in a position to look after their own security.

My boyfriend is out there to protect people like you and your post really offended me. Try having a little empathy for the friends and family of members of the forces that are there and be thankful that you are living in a country where there is peace.

[inspectorjason]

Here's a recent World Public Opinion Report on the attitude of the Iraqi people regarding centralized Iraqi government, the U.S.-led coalition, etc.

http://www.worldpubl...q_Sep06_rpt.pdf

To be taken with a grain of salt, as all polls are, but the results of this one are interesting.   The Iraqi people seem to strongly favor a centralized government.

[Sweden]

inspectorjason said:

Here's a recent World Public Opinion Report on the attitude of the Iraqi people regarding centralized Iraqi government, the U.S.-led coalition, etc.

http://www.worldpubl...q_Sep06_rpt.pdf

To be taken with a grain of salt, as all polls are, but the results of this one are interesting.   The Iraqi people seem to strongly favor a centralized government.

They also seem to strongly favour a withdrawal within a year. And 4 out of 5 Iraqis consider the US presence a conflict-provoking factor.
Do you get to pick which questions/answers you want to pay attention to?

Anyway, the poll is rather flawed...

"a nationwide sample of 1,150, which included an oversample of Arab Sunnis."

Do you believe that the Sunnis generally would be in favour of a centralized government, given the nation's history?

"Respondents from all of Iraq’s 18 governorates were interviewed for the sample."

All right, but were the ethnic groups interviewed in proportion to their percentage of the entire population? No info on that. Stupid.

"Support for Strong Central Government, Not Militias
Iraqis appear to agree on having a strong central government. Large majorities among all groups want the government to get rid of the militias."

How does one make the connection between not wanting any militias on the streets and supporting a centralized government? I do hope the questions were not asked in connection with one another.

This poll needs to be taken with a couple of truckloads of salt, if you really do want to pay any attention to it at all.

/D

[Sweden]

Sweden said:

"Support for Strong Central Government, Not Militias
Iraqis appear to agree on having a strong central government. Large majorities among all groups want the government to get rid of the militias."

How does one make the connection between not wanting any militias on the streets and supporting a centralized government? I do hope the questions were not asked in connection with one another.

Damnit, it actually was!
"Would you prefer to have a strong government that would get rid of all militias or do you think it would be better to continue to have militias to protect your security?"

You take that as a proof of support for a centralized government?

/D

[Corpus]

inspectorjason said:

Here's a recent World Public Opinion Report on the attitude of the Iraqi people regarding centralized Iraqi government, the U.S.-led coalition, etc.

http://www.worldpubl...q_Sep06_rpt.pdf

To be taken with a grain of salt, as all polls are, but the results of this one are interesting.   The Iraqi people seem to strongly favor a centralized government.

I don't think that poll supports your contention.

[bizaleth]

Corpus said:

I don't think that poll supports your contention.

Wow. I don't think any part of that poll supports much of anything Jason has said.

[baschiera]

Kat-Kit said:

Do you actually know what they are doing in Iraq? They're training their police force and army to be in a position to look after their own security.

My boyfriend is out there to protect people like you and your post really offended me. Try having a little empathy for the friends and family of members of the forces that are there and be thankful that you are living in a country where there is peace.

I believe you when you say your boyfriend is in Iraq to protect  people (and people like me: that's strange, I've always thought it's Italian Police and Carabinieri who protect me and all Italian citizens) but the majority of soldiers are in Iraq  to fight in a war which has already  killed a huge number of innocent Iraqi civilians and soldiers (more than 3,000 American soldiers died: I don't know how many English soldiers died but I think many of them were injured or died too), and all these people are dying on the basis of a BIG LIE, everybody knows that by now. Anyway, I'm really trying to control mysel because I don't want to be rude and unpolite to anybody, but believe me, it really makes me so angry to read what you wrote and I'm sick and disgusted  of all this stupid rhetoric. Patrizia

[pebbles]

I think it's possible to question the US government's motives and purposes in iraq as something separate from questioning the motives and desires of the individual soldiers.

[bizaleth]

pebbles said:

I think it's possible to question the US government's motives and purposes in iraq as something separate from questioning the motives and desires of the individual soldiers.

I agree. My little brother was stationed in Iraq in 2003-2004. He didn't go over there to harm Iraqi citizens; he went over there to try and help. And, much to my dismay, he will probably be going back next year. We have agreed to disagree on the reasons he is there, but he tells me that he feels that is where he belongs for numerous reasons.

There are bad apples, so to speak. There have been innocent civilians killed -- some of them outright murdered. But I think to blanket all troops as having killed innocent civilians is pretty outrageous. You have to remember that you are not there. You don't know what it is like. I can imagine it is similar to the Vietnam war in some ways: you don't always know who the enemy is. Your best friend may want to secretly kill you. There are suicide bombers everywhere and oftentimes soldiers have to make a split-second decision about what to do.

Now, those who massacre and outright harm, maim, and kill innocents? No, not acceptable. And recently there have been several high-profile cases in the US involving soldiers accused of murdering Iraqis civilians.

[Kat-Kit]

Patrizia, I never actually said I condone the decision to invade <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com/><st1:country-region w:st=Iraq </ST1:p</st1:country-region>and I’m somewhat skeptical about the legality of the war. However I do wholeheartedly agree with the comments made on the BBC last night by General Sir Mike Jackson, former head of the British Army, regarding the “cut and run” policy lots of people seem keen for the US and UK to adopt.

"To leave <ST1:p<st1:country-region w:st="on">Iraq </st1:country-region></ST1:pbefore the Iraqi security forces are fully able to deal with the current violence would be both morally wrong and a fundamental strategic mistake.”
<O:p
Imagine what the world would be like now if forces in previous conflicts had done this? Doesn’t really bear thinking about does it? I’m a firm believer in finishing a job that you set out to complete.
<O:p
And as for my comments about Lee protecting people, maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I mean all Armed Forces, no matter what country their from. No matter what country we lived in I know Lee would be in the armed forces as he is selfless enough to be willing to lose his life to save that of another person.<O:p</O:p

[inspectorjason]

bizaleth said:

Wow. I don't think any part of that poll supports much of anything Jason has said.

The poll indicates that most Iraqis want a strong centralized goverment, which is contrary to many beliefs here that Iraq should be broken up into seperate countries (Kurdish borders, etc.).  

As far as the support for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq among Iraqi people, it's of no surprise, but the measures of support from different segments of the population says more than just the brush stroke percentage.   And, yes, the people of Iraq are glad that Saddam Hussein was removed from power.

Kat-Kit said:

And as for my comments about Lee protecting people, maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I mean all Armed Forces, no matter what country their from. No matter what country we lived in I know Lee would be in the armed forces as he is selfless enough to be willing to lose his life to save that of another person.<O:p</O:p

You were very clear in your first post and I, for one, sincerely appreciate your boyfriend's presence in Iraq and am of the belief that the world is a better place because of the coalition presence there, even if I, like everyone else, hope that the new Iraqi government can stablize matters with our help soon enough for troops to return home in safety.  

I'll keep my fingers crossed for him and everyone else over there.   Don't let the opinions of people who don't even know you or your loved ones bother you.

Corpus said:

I don't think that poll supports your contention.

bizaleth said:

Wow. I don't think any part of that poll supports much of anything Jason has said.

I was aware of this when I posted the poll and several of the question results were what prompted my "this poll should be taken with a grain of salt" comment.  

If I didn't look at the argument from all angles, then my side of the argument would hardly be worthwhile.

[petruchio]

Kudos to Jason for putting up a poll that does not really support his beliefs.

I find it very interesting that 58% of the population believe a US withdrawl will lead to less violence and that 61% believe that attacks on US troops are justified, yet this has not lead to increased support for Al Qaeda.

The fact that the Bush administration refuses to acknowledge all of this is just intentional ignorance.  Sadly, that is the flaw of the administration, for too long they have listened to those they wanted to hear and ignored all others.  US presence is not decreasing problems, their presence is the problem.

[Kelly A]

mickk said:

Honeslty our good ol buddys the US are worse than children at times. Dont want to lose face. Meanwhile troops die.

[...]

YOU the people of the US are the only ones that can bring your boys and girls home. Get of your collective arseholes and start demanding change!

Stop believing the lies and start believing your eyes.

So what are you doing about it in Australia?

[Dr Winston O'Boogie]

Kelly A said:

So what are you doing about it in Australia?

Our PM blindly follows your President because he's a right wing conservative idiot.  Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of mid-term elections so we have to put up with this government until the next election in probably late 2007 (they only have to give 6 weeks notice and it can be anytime after March).

Needless to say, public opinion about Bush et al is down the crapper.  The PM is still sticking to his "George Bush is God" song though so unless we can vote him out next year there ain't nothing we can do and chances are because he has such a fine economic record it'll be a case of "I've got mine, Jack".  So, sadly, apart from throwing ourselves into the sea in protest (and plenty of people are leaving the country) our hands are tied.

Our main opposition party, Labor (equivalent to your dEms, I guess) have had a change of leadership in the last few months so we'll have to wait and see what their policies are.  For now, though, we're sitting on our tied, selfish, i'm alright jack hands.

[Kelly A]

Dr Winston O said:

Our PM blindly follows your President because he's a right wing conservative idiot.  Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of mid-term elections so we have to put up with this government until the next election in probably late 2007 (they only have to give 6 weeks notice and it can be anytime after March).

Needless to say, public opinion about Bush et al is down the crapper.  The PM is still sticking to his "George Bush is God" song though so unless we can vote him out next year there ain't nothing we can do and chances are because he has such a fine economic record it'll be a case of "I've got mine, Jack".  So, sadly, apart from throwing ourselves into the sea in protest (and plenty of people are leaving the country) our hands are tied.

Our main opposition party, Labor (equivalent to your dEms, I guess) have had a change of leadership in the last few months so we'll have to wait and see what their policies are.  For now, though, we're sitting on our tied, selfish, i'm alright jack hands.

I feel pretty helpless here too. I'm not sure our Congress has any power anymore.